280 replies to this topic

[gerglmuff2]

More video and hype on Facebook and YouTube, and start charging spectators at the gate. That’s it? Problems solved?

 

that is not an accurate assessment of my suggestions, its actually the opposite in the last case there. 

[Mitch Reading]

A lot of great, specific suggestions in this thread.  Gerglmuff2 and Steve...same team guys.  We all want the club to succeed!  I haven't met either one of you guys but I'm betting there is at least a 20 year span in your ages.  It absolutely needs to be recognized that there is both a LOT of money out there in the 35 yo and younger crowd focused on amateur motorsports and its not coming to the SCCA for the most part. 

 

Give someone a taste of the wheel to wheel experience and they'll come back...

[gerglmuff2]

the clubs future relies not on doubling or tripling down on old white dudes, its firmly in giving millennials (which is a swear word for some reason, villainize who you are trying to market too, nice work!) a racing product they want. 

i do not buy the arguments that:

1. millennial don't want to race
2. the SCCA is doomed and we should just manage the decline

3. millennials are incapable of racing because *insert bullshit boomer garbage here*

rather i believe that this is true:

the kids want to race. the kids are racing. the kids are spending lots of time and money on racing. they just are doing it less and less at SCCA events because other groups are providing a racing product that better matches what they want out of racing. 

so we should figure out a way to match what other organizations are doing, and using the the strengths of the SCCA (of which there are actually many), we should pursue them. media is a huge component here. building a cohesive ladder from autocross, through HPDE, time attack, and into w2w is huge. not pillaring off Motorsports into niches is important. 

[granracing]

Maybe we need to make weekends a bigger mix of HPDEs and W2W sessions?  The transition from HPDE > W2W is a big jump.  Get the HPDE crowd integrated with the W2W crowd and it could make this a bit easier since they have more exposure.

 

It would be interesting to see overall HPDE / Track Day participation numbers in the US over the past 10 years.  It seems like it has been increasing at a steady rate.  I'm amazed looking at organizations such as SCDA and just how many events they host. 

[Mike Collins]

Its been a while since I posted.

 

It can be fixed but we need to understand the problem and execute a solution that works.

 

The SCCA is dying because it fails to evolve.  SCCA Club racing IS vintage racing we just haven't admitted it yet.

 

To fix the problem you only really need to do a couple of things.... Get the SCCA office out of Topeka and into Indy where it might have the chance to interact with other REAL motorsport companies who have a passion for the success of the industry.

 

SCCA club racing needs to reformat EVERYTHING!  groups need to be divided on power/weight and vintage/non vintage. More cars on track in non/vintage less in vintage.  People want to take the toys home to play with again, not constantly be fixing them.  SVRA kicks people out all the time for aggressive driving, for every one they kick out, three more join... SVRA is eating our lunch because we are too proud.  They use our rules for cars and know how to throw a good event. SCCA club racing can still have defined classes of cars and the succesful classes should compete at a championship and have a "Super Tour".

 

The "Super Tour" needs to be run by SCCA Pro.  Lets get the club racing politics out of it. Some weekends should feature F4 and F3, while others will have Trans AM.  I'm not suggesting its a Pro Series, I'm suggesting its run by Pro.  Create a path to the runoffs via Super Tour or combination of Super Tour and Club Racing....  No direct path from club racing only.

 

I could go on but you get the idea....... I have a huge power point about all this if anyone wants to see it... Its about 45 pages long....

[gerglmuff2]

Maybe we need to make weekends a bigger mix of HPDEs and W2W sessions?  The transition from HPDE > W2W is a big jump.  Get the HPDE crowd integrated with the W2W crowd and it could make this a bit easier since they have more exposure.

 

It would be interesting to see overall HPDE / Track Day participation numbers in the US over the past 10 years.  It seems like it has been increasing at a steady rate.  I'm amazed looking at organizations such as SCDA and just how many events they host. 

 

i think this was one of the best things about the old NASA system, they seemed to have a better segue through HPDE-> time trials-> racing than the SCCA has. before NASA screwed it all up ... 

the SCCA is doing good things with this though, with the new SCCA time attack series, and partnering with gridlife to license time trial drivers and move them through the system. i do think regions need to embrace this farther though. i think a lot of the onus is on the regions at this point because i think the national office actually sees a lot of these similar issues, and is addressing them, but the regions are run by old dudes stuck in there ways. the regions should work on ways to try to integrate time attack and wheel to wheel racing into one weekend. i know thats easier to say than do, but for the health of the club its important. 

i think a mentality change needs to happen in regions and in motorsports in general. again, i think the SCCA is trying to tackle this one on a national level with track night in america and the whole umbrella of #funwithcars. we need to start looking wholistically at the world of car racing. rather that "oh those weird autocrossers" or "time attack guys just don't get us" or whatever .... we are all here to drive cars fast. its actually a uniting rather than dividing thing. this goes a lot way to making events feel more inclusive and exciting to new people. so nationally the SCCA sees this .... again, the regions need to work on this. i could expound on why i think this has happened, and it mostly has to do with ego ... but the point is, we have more in common, than separates us. 

media i think is the other big one i keep harping on. SCCA is again, nationally trying to do something about this. they have that new super tour video series, following folks through a super tour weekend, and thats a good first step. again, regions need to embrace this. hire a photographer. hire some high school kid who loves cars an cameras to come out and make videos for you. there are entire youtube channels dedicated to slow pans of parked cars at car shows .... seriously. follow some drivers around for a season, even local guys. see the trouble when the cars break, show the drama on track, make it into a story. there are folks who love doing this. hell, for my ice racing "club" we often have folks come out with drones and photographers just for fun .... toss in a a couple hundred bucks and some college kid would LOVE this gig. 

this video was made, for free, for a nominally free event, and it has done more to get folks out racing locally than most things ive seen. becuase its cool. media is cheap, easy, and plentiful. we need to embrace it.  https://www.youtube....h?v=Z4ax95JeGtw

[Steve Scheifler]

Not surprisingly, Mr. Collins has a better grasp on this than almost anyone. Not to say I agree with everything he has to say, but he has a much better understanding than most of what is and isn’t possible or likely to be effective. Where we *might* diverge is the degree to which the actual events need to “evolve”, but we probably wouldn’t be all that far apart either. Perhaps the very first step is a very clear statement of objectives and priorities, chief among them being whether this is a club that needs to survive to serve its traditional membership demographic or a business willing to make wholesale changes at the expense of many in an attempt to grow from a new base.

Gerglmuff2, your latest post far surpasses your prior ones (in a good way) but I wonder if you realize the degree to which you are guilty of the same dismissive and condescending attitude that you try railing against. No matter, I for one can take it because I know how far off the mark you are. Look back at our posts and I don’t think you’ll find a bunch of old white guy posts saying that there’s nothing to be learned from how other organizations are succeeding. Quite the opposite in fact, I stated emphatically that much more can be done in that area, BUT that even if you wow someone with a video you had better deliver something good when they show up. And that’s where experience has some value, it provides perspective and a sense of where the weaknesses are.

Out of necessity our local races have been combined with PDX, CRE etc. for years. We also get a lot of other track day events here and I’ve spent countless hours at those talking up wheel-to-wheel racing. Other than perhaps Peter Zekert I don’t know anyone who has offered FREE use of a race car to autocross and track day guys if they’d like to give W2W a try. A few have taken the offer but most do not. And they are already serious car-guys who participate rather than watch. The reasons are varied but the point is that it is VERY hard to get someone to commit to this sport. I get to say this because I’m an old guy with the experience that you seem to loath to back it up.

Again, more can be done and you have given credit where it is due for some of the more recent efforts. But you don’t seem to fully appreciate the scale of finance differences between our club racing events and Gridlife, XYZ Drifters, etc. Put yourself into the frame of mind of creating a business plan for investors and see how convincing the arguments look. Mike Collins could help you with that and has the credentials to justify listening.

So your videos and such bring people to the track, then what? As I’ve already said, our form of motorsports is inherently not very entertaining for spectators. It isn’t necessary to pick on the attention span of modern youth to state that the vast majority of races at the majority of events would lose their interest within a couple laps. That’s just a fact. A good in-car video of an SM or SRF race might get them to show up but the reality will be a letdown for most. So as I stated from the start, it isn’t about recruiting large numbers at once, it’s about identifying and nurturing the (very) few who “get it” enough to ask questions and come back for more. Think what you like, that hasn’t changed much over the years.

Then there is the psychology angle that I mentioned earlier. Perhaps I’ll bore you with that in another post but I believe that it is one of the biggest factors in the other half of the equation, keeping existing racers coming back and also plays a big role in blocking the “ladder” from working.

[gerglmuff2]

we are going around and around at this point .... but i have never said that event operations cannot be improved, merely that i do not think that is fundamentally why we are having popularity issues. 

to circle around, for about the third time .... grid life is filling tracks with folks standing along the track, to watch qualifying. 

i really dont know why anyone would be at all interested in watching time attack (qualifying), but they do. no matter how boring you think road racing is to watch, its more exciting and interesting than time attack any day of the week. no matter how boring you think a divisional race weekend might be, its more interesting to watch than time attack. 
 

[Nathan Pring]

we are going around and around at this point .... but i have never said that event operations cannot be improved, merely that i do not think that is fundamentally why we are having popularity issues. 

to circle around, for about the third time .... grid life is filling tracks with folks standing along the track, to watch qualifying. 

i really dont know why anyone would be at all interested in watching time attack (qualifying), but they do. no matter how boring you think road racing is to watch, its more exciting and interesting than time attack any day of the week. no matter how boring you think a divisional race weekend might be, its more interesting to watch than time attack. 
 

 

 

 

 

Without having gone to a gridlife event, i get the feeling it's more a car and music festival with live flashy car displays, rather than a racing event per say.  It seems the main draw is to hang out and party with mates and be part of car culture, I doubt many attendees care who wins the Time Attack (I'm the same, it's like watching qualifying, I don't get it, but I don't need to). The event organizers have tapped into that market and have quite arguably promoted it very well given the crowd sizes they're pulling.  The also have the advantage of being shiny and new, started with a blank slate only a few years ago and are a much smaller organization so they can respond quicker. 

[LarryKing]

I JUST WANT TO DO IT LIKE GRIDLIFE !

[gerglmuff2]

if gridlife can appeal to new racers, and sell out events full of them ... then we can to 

fify

[LarryKing]

 

 

LarryKing, on 21 May 2019 - 3:23 PM, said:

if gridlife can appeal to new racers, and sell out events full of them ... then we can to 

Your words not mine

[SteveS]

I'd like to offer a different perspective in all humility. I have been doing HPDE in a C5 Z06 Corvette, which has evolved into damn near a racecar, out of necessity.  Those events are twice the cost of an SCCA race, and the insurance on the car is an additional say $170 per event.  It eats brakes, gulps gas like no Miata driver could imagine, and wears out tires in no time.  But, it is exciting once you get up to 10/10ths with the nanny controls off, and a real sense of accomplishment--but high stress. In HPDE even in group 4, egos are a problem.  But, make no mistake, lots of those guys are spending fortunes in HPDE.  So, I bought a 1993 SM2 car from a friend after helping him build a SM.  The SCCA school at Summit Point was great.  From then on, it's been total confusion.  I ran my first race in SM, a huge disadvantage on top of being a rookie in a tired car, because I was on the wrong tires and no sealed intake.  I didn't expect being in the front, but getting lapped by so many faster cars was deflating.  Because I live on the NY/PA border,  running in the Northeast and the MARRS DC regionals is desirable.   How do you be legal in both?  Brick wall.  The Northeast person didn't even return my call.  Nobody seems to be able to point to the SM2 rules--where this car belongs up here.  SSM in DC is crystal clear--got it. Even though I honestly think driving the Miata in a race is more fun than the Z06 in HPDE or TT would be--and a TON cheaper, I actually already considered giving the Miata to my son and just resigning to HPDE, it's that frustrating. I did an HPDE at the Glen just for seat time, and already I'm having my arm twisted to make the car an AER car--they say they have a blast and want me to join--and you get enormous track time...hmmm. I met a kid who had a Miata race car, and he said go to NASA--it's easier, simpler rules and he finds it much improved over SCCA! hmmm. As I sit here, the car needs a clutch and I saw a part number for SM for an ACT kit--gotta refind that--but will that be legal in DC as well as the Northeast?  Somebody said I could run in ITA and possibly Supertour, but I can't possibly consider that, it's hard enough to try to be legal in SM2 and SSM.  I'll figure it out--the point is that all this seems unnecessary, and people are pushing me to leave SCCA!  SCCA has been great racing in the past. Having gone to dirt modifieds all the way to F1 races, the best race I ever saw was an AP SCCA event at the Glen with a 427 Cobra, a 427 Corvette, and a Group 44 12 cyl Jag.  It was an unforgettable epic struggle that I remember with reverence.  Those races aren't the same any more.  Yes, SSM in DC is a smash success, but if a poll was done, probably most participants were cannibalized directly from SM--so maybe overall participation didn't increase at all. That means people are trying to control costs.  Another observation, competing organizations like NASA and AER are popping up all over, and SCCA is now sharing enthusiasts with competitors everywhere, where they were once the only choice. Proactive would have been best, but now at least be effectively reactive. SCCA has some strengths, they have an army of racers! What if racers trained HPDE drivers and got a break on fees from SCCA track events? Build a transition from HPDE (which to a person everyone agrees is ADDICTING). I've done track nights with SCCA and rank beginners get to sign up in the advanced group and instructors are strictly forbidden?  That's ridiculous when I'm doing 150 out there with them. Someone is going to die. Start over! Everybody is encouraging me to go elsewhere.  How about assigning a mentor to sift through the confusion and share contacts who can answer questions. I'm trying to be loyal to SCCA, and have met some GREAT people, but I must say, SCCA seems under assault.  SCCA officials should go to NASA and AER events and figure out the appeal and improve on it, and implement it--that's how the Japanese got rich. Just some humble observations from a guy trying hard to make the transition.   

[Steve Scheifler]

Steve S, don’t give up, and do try to pass your concerns onto the appropriate people. But it sounds like those people are not the national SCCA, other than the fact that they do allow regions to operate by their own rules for non-national (Major & HST) events. While I think that’s mostly a good thing, it has resulted in numerous SM spinoffs often with the same names but different rules and not always well documented. I suspect that in some cases it has boosted total participation significantly, but at the same time cannibalized the “national” class to the point where it doesn’t make sense for newbies to build for that. It leaves someone like you stuck, just as you describe, with too many similar but incompatible choices. I’m not familiar enough with typical turnout for events around there but I would seriously look at getting the car to true national SCCA SM legal spec so you can run any SCCA club race. If you have all the standard equipment, appropriate tires and just a solid tuned stock engine, then the car will be good enough to not get lapped if driven well. That’s a low bar I know, but my point is that in the hands of a top driver the difference between the best car and a decent one is much less than most believe. Confirm that the engine is solid and healthy then focus on everything else and the driver.

[Tom Sager]

Steve S, just to add to what the other Steve S ^^^^ said, I think that a '93 in NEDIV SM2 doesn't require any prep that isn't the same as SM but someone else may know better.  After reading your comments about the Corvette, it seems like you have some budget for this.  You might want to start by deciding what your goals are for the next couple seasons.  From your comments it sounds like just being out there isn't good enough, you want to be in a position to be a bit more competitive.  If that's the case, with some help from someone that has been in the class a while you might want to assess the health of the car and then decide if you want to make some investment to make it more competitive. It's not terribly difficult or expensive to get a chassis setup to a competitive level. A "good" engine if you don't have one already isn't terribly expensive to build or find or tune.  What can become expensive IMO if your goal is to better compete is entering several races with a car that is way off and having a frustrating and unsatisfying experience only to later spend the bucks to make the car better or nickel and dime your way along.  If it's within the budget, consider getting the car evaluated and freshened up.  If there is something about the car that makes that cost prohibitive, consider investing in another car that will perform more like what you want. 

 

SCCA and NASA rules are virtually identical and there are a lot of SCCA events at several tracks within a reasonable tow from your location.  Best of luck and if you have specific questions about your car, there are plenty of people here willing to provide guidance. 

[RWP80000]

Lots of good thought provoking discussions being offered on this thread.  I feel that the biggest issue is in the lack of marketing tools being applied to make the public more aware of and draw them to the entertainment value to be had attending the free venue being made available for those with any curiosity in motorsports and W2W racing.

 

The big NHRA, Nascar, Formula 1 events etc. all have high dollar ticket prices at the gate, even the collector car auctions and Goodguy type events command significant gate fees. The thing about these that I notice is that there is local media saturation in the local community when these events are happening to prime the interest in the local enthusiast population to the upcoming event.

 

I know we have both the SCCA and Nasa monthly magazines but these are not widely known or subscribed to by non members of these organizations.  I get Autoweek and find very little related to SCCA or NASA events which makes me wonder if the money used to publish the in-house mag's couldn't be better spent having Autoweek carry the results and point standings in addition to highlighting the more accomplished performers with in our events.

 

Another thing that I have thought about is how do we make the Conference Championship races more attractive so that competitors commit trying to win these.  It seems like we have taken the incentive to finish high in a Conference Championship away by only requiring a minimal participation threshold in order to attend the Runoffs event. 

 

One thought I had would be to provide a discount to racers based on the number of Conference points they accumulate throughout the season.  Looking at the points standings in the conferences as of now I would say offer a 1 percent discount to those for every 10 conference points.  At the start of the season there would be no discounts and after the first event weekend, say someone swept the first two races (50 points), they would get a 5% discount on there next entry in that conference.  By the end of the Conference schedule the points leader may get up to a 20% discount.  Most would not but it would encourage more participation as the season progresses and would help to keep the title races tighter towards the end of the season.  SCCA should run some numbers to see how much it would cost to implement such a plan but it seems to me that it could draw more money in enticing people to participate through the full season.

 

I really agree with earlier comments about doing something to draw an interest to the low cost entertainment of our events.  I think both the social media and local market radio and news could bring a much stronger awareness of what we are about.  Once we increase the public awareness then we will have a much better chance of bringing more into the Club.

 

Rich Powers 

[Ron Alan]

Full disclosure to preface my comments...I volunteer with NASA for my own selfish reasons. But I attend every SCCA event as well in my region...either because I'm renting cars or I'm crewing for friends or both! I have no issue with either Org(started with SCCA) and enjoy both...that said, as a guy pushing 60...the difference is staggering! Not only in terms of pure demographics but participant numbers.

 

I can count on one hand the number of kids at my local SCCA event...and on the other hand the number of drivers under 25. My SM NASA group had 9 TMC(teen)participants among the 45 entries in the rain last weekend. HPDE 1-4 parking areas are filled with high dollar cars driven by the future of the tech world(millennials)and there buddies hanging around! Every time I see a street Miata I beeline to those drivers to explain how easy it is to get into REAL racing...come talk to some of my drivers! My SCCA evenings consist of listening to the same paddock racing stories I've heard multiple times over the years Pretty soon I will be the one with all the stories but know one to tell them to! 

 

I had other comments in the early pages here but wont repeat them...all I can say is unless my local region figures out away to attract NEW drivers...along with its current members SCCA will die off

[CruzanTom]

One approach to increase participation and spectators is to make the whole weekend more attractive. Add non-racing events: music, food trucks, booths, etc. We racers are having plenty of fun so focus on bringing new people to the tracks. The tracks are usually large venues with plenty of extra space.

 

When non-racing friends ask me about spectators, I laugh and tell them the only spectators at SCCA events are people related to drivers or paid by drivers (crew). If you've ever brought a non-racing guest to a race weekend, you realize that there is nothing for them to do after the initial "Wow!" factor wears off. in the Southeast, the only non-racing event most weekends is the Saturday night BBQ and beer for volunteers; most racers don't even attend. 

 

Why not have music Friday and Saturday nights? Decent bands will play for $500 - $1,000, not a huge amount for a region given a racing weekend budget. 

 

Food sucks at most tracks (thank goodness for me and others at OPM that Tom married Tracy!) so why not invite food trucks? They cost nothing and you can even charge them a fee. 5 food trucks at $100 pays for a band.

 

Non-racing activities are non-existent at most tracks. Why not have an entertainment chair? Activity booths - around Charleston, the latest craze is axe-throwing booths. Crazy idea but people are lining up to participate. Give the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends something to do besides saying "Nice race, honey."

 

Have something for kids to do. If we really want the dreaded millennials to participate (Yes!), recognize they are probably bringing their kids and give them something for their kids to do - jump castle anyone?

 

How about a beer fest? With the long summer evenings, there would be time for a series of local craft beer booths (plus a PBR keg for Collins).

 

These are just a few ideas that a 63 year old white guy came up with. But I have 5 kids who have their own kids. I listen to them and see what they like. SCCA and regionals need to do so, too. 

[granracing]

"why not invite food trucks?"  Because most tracks won't allow that as they will be taking a financial hit.  For example, as of several years ago Lime Rock charged the region $950 for two kegs of beer.  Eeek!!!

 

There's definitely a perception issue and is extremely intimidating seeing an SCCA race for someone new, heck even me with my lowly open wheel trailer.  Pulling into the paddock and seeing all of the big rigs.

 

Steve S., you just got unlucky with your interactions.  I've been at Summit where I was attempting to repair my car, I guess it was evident that I didn't know what I was doing to a few other people and they jumped in to repair it and told me to go get some food for myself.  THEY completed the repairs and I was back out on track for my next session.  That blew me away.  Not saying that's the norm but people are extremely helpful especially to novices as long as they check their ego.

 

If you're going to LRP in June or the Glen in July, you're more than welcome to paddock near me and I can show you around.  Send me a PM if interested or have questions in general.

[Tom Sager]

Another thing that I have thought about is how do we make the Conference Championship races more attractive so that competitors commit trying to win these.  It seems like we have taken the incentive to finish high in a Conference Championship away by only requiring a minimal participation threshold in order to attend the Runoffs event. 

 

 

Yes, we need to make conference championships great again.