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Poll: tire management (78 member(s) have cast votes)

Do we need a tire management program

  1. yes (69 votes [88.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 88.46%

  2. no (5 votes [6.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.41%

  3. undecided (4 votes [5.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

Opinions on proposed program

  1. I like it is as is, no changes (50 votes [64.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.10%

  2. I don't like it (3 votes [3.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  3. I like it but it needs some work (25 votes [32.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.05%

Do you agree with the tire replacement part of the proposal?

  1. yes, leave it as is (50 votes [64.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.10%

  2. no not at all (4 votes [5.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

  3. yes I agree but the plan needs work (24 votes [30.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.77%

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#141
Jim Drago

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Jim do you have Samples of said stickers? 

As Tom said, I don't think that it will be an issue. I didn't want to spend a bunch of time researching and ordering unless the plan has support through SMAC. If the SMAC and CRB is on board, I am sure you can source appropriate stickers, but since only two of the 5 SMAC members that voted here and were both clearly against the proposal, I didn't want to spend a bunch of time researching it either. ;)  If it makes it through SMAC, then we can worry about sourcing the stickers. 


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#142
Jim Drago

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Seems to work in trans am with 200k plus cars who abuse their tires far more than we do...  We just need to eliminate the marking as it is asks a lot of the volunteers, very time consuming. Which is why I propose the stickers, It takes all of the extra time and man power out of the equation.

 

Pasted from Trans Am rules

 

 

 

12.7: TIRES 
12.7.1: All cars must compete on Pirelli tires as listed in the current year Pirelli Racing Tire, TRANS-AM SERIES - DIMENSIONAL DATA & PRICING product guide This applies to all official practice, qualifying and race sessions. The product guide is available from the Trans Am TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, or at gotransam.com. Tires must be ordered through the Trans Am series tire ordering process. 
12.7.2: Soaking or chemical treating of the tires is prohibited. Tire samples may be taken and sent to a lab for analysis. Tire warmers (or any other method of preheating tires) are prohibited. Modification to tires, by grooving, siping, or any other means, is not permitted. Rubber buildup (clag) May be scraped from the tire’s surface. The minimum fine for soaking, chemical treating or modifying tires in any way is $5000 (USD).
 12.7.3: Teams shall leave tires used for qualifying, and/or the race, mounted on the car until the car has cleared post-session technical inspection, or until the car is cleared by a Trans Am Pit Lane Official, to return from the pit lane to the paddock. 12.7.4: Trans Am Technical Staff will mark four dry tires (slicks) per car prior to qualifying. The marking must remain visible throughout the event. The TECHNICAL DIRECTOR will specify one, or more, periods of time on the official event schedule when all teams must have their tires prepared to be marked at their paddock. Teams not being prepared to have their tires marked during the specified time may be penalized. 
12.7.5: All cars shall start the race on the same set of marked dry tires that they qualified on, or on the set of dry tires the team had marked prior to qualifying if rain tires (treaded) were used in the qualifying session. 
12.7.6: Teams may change one dry tire, any time after qualifying begins, without penalty. The TECHNICAL DIRECTOR must be notified. 
12.7.7: If a team changes more than one marked, dry tire once the qualifying session begins, that car will lose all qualifying times. If the team notifies the TECHNICAL DIRECTOR of this change in time to have the grid sheets corrected and reprinted, the car may start at the back of the grid for its class. If a car presents on the pre-grid with more than one unmarked tire, without informing the TECHNICAL DIRECTOR properly, the car must start the race from the pit lane after the field passes. NOTE: in a “split start” situation, every attempt will be made to release a car from the pit lane after his class/group receives the green if it can be done in a safe manner. 
12.7.8: Any number of damaged tires may be changed per pit stop during the race without penalty. A Trans Am pit lane official must verify the damage. Only one undamaged tire may be changed during a pit stop without penalty.
 12.7.9: A decision to use rain tires is made by the crew chief for each car. If the crew chief decides to use rain tires in all or a part of qualifying, but not in the race, the car shall start the race on the set of 4 dry tires that were marked prior to qualifying. If the crew chief decides to use the 4 marked dry tires in qualifying, but not in the race, the car may start on any set of rain tires, new or used. If the crew chief decides to use rain tires in both qualifying and the race, any combination of rain tires, new or used, may be used.   

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#143
Tom Sager

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We've used some security/tamper proof labels in our business.  Here's a short video that demonstrates how some work.  Not saying that these particular labels in the video are the correct adhesive or design but it's a quick demonstration.  Labels can be purchased in a wide variety of materials and adhesives and can be pre-numbered as needed.


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#144
Jim Drago

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We've used some security/tamper proof labels in our business.  Here's a short video that demonstrates how some work.  Not saying that these particular labels in the video are the correct adhesive or design but it's a quick demonstration.  Labels cam be purchased in a wide variety of materials and adhesives and can be pre-numbered as needed.

 

Exactly, This wont be as hard as getting it approved. It should be easy. I see no common sense reason to be against this program. We get that and a tire that has more raceable sessions, all of us will cut tire budget by about 60%


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#145
Steve Scheifler

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Rubber is inherently difficult to work with, but on the other hand whatever adhesive tire companies use on their stickers works well. I’ve got samples with two different adhesives coming as recommended by a salesman. I’ll report back in a few days. Have fun in Elkhart Lake! (Jim, that’s in Wisconsin, not Elkhart Indiana)
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#146
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Have fun in Elkhart Lake! (Jim, that’s in Wisconsin, not Elkhart Indiana)

Jim don't do street races.


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#147
Tom Hampton

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Jim got distracted at a restaurant. Fell in love with some food or some such.
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#148
Brandon

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It's plain everyone focused on my "Doing the math" part of my post as my proposal is 3 lines long:

 

  • 5 stickers/weekend (which can be put on used tires or tires from previous years if this becomes a thing).
  • Allow any tires with previously event's stickers to be used in a weekend.
  • A maximum of 3 different stickers (if they are different per event) can be used during any weekend.
    • This may not be necessary if it's a case of a non-unique "2019 SCCA Tire" sticker is used at all HSTs.

 

It's still a balanced approach but adds flexibility for those who have tires (with stickers) with cycles left.

 

Outstanding questions:

  • How does one get new stickers (if needed)?
  • What is the repercussion in getting a new sticker?
  • What is the repercussion in violating the sticker rules?

 

*** BELOW THIS LINE IS NOT MY PROPOSAL BUT AN ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN OR ELABORATE SOME SCENARIOS ***

 

Monied racer with 5 new tires/weekend:

Event 1 == 5 tires with stickers (don't screw up your driving)

Event 2 == 10 tires (the 5 previous plus the 5 new) and can use any of the 10 (5 new, 5 used)

Event 3 == 15 tires (see above)

Event 4 == 20 tires but can only use two previous event's tires during the weekend (Event 1 tires are probably toast meaning a second set consists of tires from Events 2 & 3)

 

Budget racer with 2 new tires/weekend

Event 1 == 3 used, 2 new

Event 2 == 3 used, 2 with (4 new, 6 used)

Event 3 == 3 used, 2 new (6 new, 9 used)

(budget constraints hit)

Event 4 == 5 used (?? new, 14 used + any of the previously 6 new) but can only use tires from any 3 sets of stickers

 

Frugal racer with no new tires/weekend

Event 1 == 5 used

Event 2 == 5 used (10 used)

Event 3 == 5 used (15 used)

Event 4 == 5 used (20 used) but can only use tires from any 3 set of stickers

 

As I said, that constraint of limiting the number of stickers usable per weekend may not be necessary as they should cycle themselves out but we would want to have something in mind for when a budget or frugal racer buys used tires (with stickers) from a monied racer. Do stickers get removed and re-added for the particular entrant/car?


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#149
Steve Scheifler

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I understood the proposal, but still say too complicated.

Main issue: In the KISS approach the 4-5 stickers plus one specifically for the car are a set, all with a common serial number. So the tamper proof car sticker must have the same number as the tires. In your version that doesn’t work at all.
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#150
Jim Drago

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I understood the proposal, but still say too complicated.

Main issue: In the KISS approach the 4-5 stickers plus one specifically for the car are a set, all with a common serial number. So the tamper proof car sticker must have the same number as the tires. In your version that doesn’t work at all.

agree


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#151
Richard Astacio

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How does the SCCA Pro keep track of tire marking?


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#152
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Scroll up to post #142.


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#153
powerss

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Any answer to the question about what is the repercussions for violating the sticker rule?

 

The scenario I am wondering about is.....

 

1) I run my first session and declare my tires with stickers and have a set time gridding for the weekend.

2) I run my 2nd session with an old set of tires to get track time for learning the track or trying a setup change even though I think my time will be slower but I don't want to waste my "Good" tires for later sessions.

 

Do I just lose my time for that session or do I get moved to the back for the next on track session?

 

My opinion is that the only thing that is affected by not running the sticker tires in a session is that I lose my time for that specific session.

 

Is that everyone's interpretation?


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#154
ChrisA

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I haven't kept up/read all the posts in this thread, but generally I like the idea. Regarding the stickers and concerns about them staying affixed, it was mentioned previously to see if Hoosier could bar code the tires. We know they can, because Michelin does and I think Continental/Hoosier did for the IMSA. I know all the regions won't have scanners for the Bar Codes, but Bar Codes usually have corresponding numbers associated with them. For Runoffs & Supertour the SCCA could probably utilize scanners if they wanted. For Regionals, the racer could enter the last 4-5 digits of the code for each of the 4 selected tires, plus 1 alternate tire (for damage replacement) as Jim had suggested on a door label. This would be slightly less demanding on the driver/crew since they don't have to "properly" affix the labels to the tires. And, we know some will have trouble... the tire was dirty, it was raining, it fell in the dirt, I lost one, I put it on the wrong tire, my crew said they put them on, etc. Jot the numbers down on the door sticker, slap it on the door or window. I feel better about scrapping a sticker of glass than off paint.  :optimist:


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#155
Steve Scheifler

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I didn’t read through all of that ;), but distinct barcodes make it impossible for tech, as well as anyone walking the grid, to know at a glance that things at least appear correct/compliant. If it boiled down to barcodes or nothing, my vote is nothing.
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#156
RWP80000

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From Brandon's Post # 148 above:

It's plain everyone focused on my "Doing the math" part of my post as my proposal is 3 lines long:

 

  • 5 stickers/weekend (which can be put on used tires or tires from previous years if this becomes a thing).
  • Allow any tires with previously event's stickers to be used in a weekend.
  • A maximum of 3 different stickers (if they are different per event) can be used during any weekend.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with what Brandon is trying to do above.  If implementing a 4 "Sticker" tire event limit, I personally would prefer to retain the flexibility of how to use up previously stickered/marked tires but recognize the complexity of managing the procedure (bureaucracy) to make this happen. 

 

The four sticker proposal (even if increased to 5) would force any serious competitor to start each two-race Event on a new set of tires.  This proposal would likely increase our own tire costs over how we currently manage tires as we have averaged using on average 1.5 tires per corner position per weekend in our tire management efforts which include using on occasion 5 HC tires.  This means we would need to have a "6- sticker" system but lets not go there! 

 

Jim's proposal, while workable, will result in completely new tire and race strategies.  Everyone will strive to minimize their "time on track" to preserve the freshness of the tires while also limiting the number of Heat Cycles during the race weekend.  This in turn will now work against those who have not recently of have never been to a track or those newly coming into the sport, as they would need to either arrive early and spend significant money on a Practice day (using up mid to high HC tires) while also striving to conserve the "event" tire set following the practice day, further restricting on track "seat time" during the event in an effort to limit tire degradation.

 

The question now becomes who are we really helping with this proposal?  Are we making it so that to be a serious competitor you need to start with a new set of tires and effectively use them up to where they will be of little future Event value?  Will this entice more people to participate in Major's/HST events or discourage participation?  I do not claim to know the answer to this but I do think it will even out the "tire strategy" used in these events, but who is really benefiting? Are all those with deep pockets who feel the need for the competitive advantage of using two, three or even four sets of stickers really that much better off doing so? What will be the affect on those who were able to control their tire budgets by picking up 3 to 6 HC tire sets at two or three hundred dollars that now have to bite the bullet of buying new tires. Will they bite that bullet or not enter?  Who knows, maybe if used tire prices comes down due to higher HC tires being sold at lower prices or maybe if more 3 and 4 HC tires now show up in the used market at an attractive price.  These are the considerations and potential for unintended consequences.

 

One thing I can say is that I have found using a "Sticker" tire in and of it's self is not an absolute performance advantage.  While the Sticker tire will be very good it may not be its very best. Probably in reality the best being in the 1 HC to 2 HC and possibly even 3HC window.

 

In a previous post (#106) I had floated a suggestion to allow, along with each entry, one or two sets of tires to be purchased at a significant discount.  I had hoped to see some discussion and consideration of this but other than Jim's expressed concern that adding the cost of a discounted set of tires to the entry fee would cloud the issue there has been no reaction.  Therefore, I would like to expound further here;

  1. If someone did not want to buy a set (or 2 sets of tires) they would not be required to. (Avoiding the entry fee sticker shock fear)
  2. We could still implement the 4 Sticker tire limit for events.
  3. My preference would be strive for a 25% discount which would amount to 1 free tire per set (depending on buying 1 or two sets.)
  4. The idea here is that every race entry would be sharing in this discount plan not just those at the "pointie" end of the field.
  5. Having, in effect, two free tires that could be mixed in or combined into a full set over two event entries provides the opportunity for racers to lower their out of pocket tire expense thereby encouraging more participation at other Major's and Super Tour events.
  6. I can see that this may necessitate a change to the actual Tire Contingency award "schedule" or may even change it to a "money" pay out for the podium finishers.
  7. The attempt here is to help everyone with their racing tire budget so as to encourage more participation through reduced cost of tires when associating buying the tires at a discount only when accompanied as part of an Event entry.

My desired goal is to increase participation and competition and not penalize those working on a budget program by eliminating sources of lower cost used tires.

 

Additionally, I do not think we need or should force people who violate a tire control program with loss of times and moving them to the back of the field but rather we should penalize them through the Points system.  Part of this is because this is not only about winning individual races but also Conference and Points championships. 

 

Also, with the knowledge that we have personally encountered "defective" tires that developed tread belt "edge" separation which was attributed to "improper mold cure" (removed from service after two heat cycles).  I think the punitive penalty proposal of being moved to the back of the pack and with loss of times is not necessary and is draconian when instead a Points penalty could be utilized.  Consider applying a Points adjustment of 5 positions from the actual finishing position applied at the end of the event after determining there was not a justifiable need to replace a set of tires.  This way, the on-track race results would not have to be interfered with but a points penalty could change the Conference and National Points standings significantly.  You could also make it so if someone did have a true Tire sticker violation assessed, this violation would have to be used and counted (and not thrown out) in the Conference and National Points standing tabulations.  Any errors in applying the points penalty could be corrected on appeal without impacting the actual on track competition where it would be impossible for a "re-do" if an error was found to have been made.

 

As we go down this road what is next?  Are we going to sticker engines and say you can only change one engine/head or block a year?  After all the cost of engines is as much or more than a seasons worth of tires.  This is not a proposal as I would be in opposition to this but we do need to keep in mind how things can go once we open the class to these "regulating" type of rules.

 

Rich Powers



#157
RWP80000

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Deleted duplicate of Post above.



#158
Steve Scheifler

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Rich, I fail to see how discounting tires at the “big” events is in an way fair and equitable. They already get bigger contingencies and are already perceived to have the deeper pockets. How do you think everyone else would react to such a deal? And why in the world would Hoosier even entertain the idea of, first, developing a more cost effective tire, then discounting those by 25% as part of a plan to also significantly reduce the number of tires people use?

As for the rest, too complicated and assumes that points of whatever flavor are a high priority for everyone.

Brandon’s plan, besides being too complex and way too hard to administer, also encourages a huge amount of tire management games to save up low HC sets, or even stickers for key events. In the end you will likely still have some people with a distinct tire advantage and the poor guy doing just a couple HSTs won’t even have the option to pony-up to keep up.
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#159
RWP80000

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Steve,

My plan is that the Discount plan would apply to both Super Tour and Majors events alike so there would be plenty of opportunity for the Conference (Divisional) participants to take advantage of this discount which should also encourage greater participation at the Conference level and allow those going the Regional route opportunity to build their seasons tire needs at a price break.

 

This year we seeded the season with one new set of Tires along with the purchase of two sets of 1 HC tires from a Runoff's participant who ran nothing but stickers during the Runoffs.  Since then we have had to buy five more tires but have been awarded 19 contingency tires so we are going into the 7th and final Conference race at Laguna which is a HST/National Points race with two sets of sticker tires on hand and an opportunity of winning an additional two sets prior to the Runoffs in Virginia.

 

What I am proposing would likely reduce the amount of tires going to the Podium finishers but spread the savings on tires to all participants in the Major's and Super Tour events, something I think would appeal to racers as a means of lowering tire costs for many while creating an incentive to participate in the SCCA Major's/Super Tours events.



#160
Steve Scheifler

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But what you managed to do in finding good used tires etc. has zero relevance. Nothing like that can be built into any assumptions, estimates, calculations of what will work for even a decent minority let alone the majority. And that still leaves regionals supporting the others, no matter HOW you spin it, and Hoosier will not be offering steep discounts on tires unless they can recoup much of that from someone. But they’ll be glad to double the price then offer a 50% discount to the majors & HST. I’m sorry to be the designated naysayer, but I simply don’t see any part of the plan that is workable, at all.
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