285 replies to this topic

[RWP80000]

Steve,

We will just have to agree to disagree.  The specifics of what we were able to do is not the point but to highlight that there is in fact a real secondary market for good used SM tires which many take advantage of to control their tire budgets.  We have always worked at managing our tire budget and both contribute to and utilize this "market" as we can.  

 

As far as "Regionals supporting the others" I am not quite sure what you mean with respect to SM.  Regional racers participating would  be able to use these discounted tires in there Regional events if that is where they desire to race. If I am not mistaken some Regions may not even require or allow the use of Hoosier tires in some of these special SM derived classes so how do these Regions provide support? The Arizona SCCA Club Racing program is dead! Everyone here is now racing NASA or Pro Autosports.  That is why our average tow to an SCCA event for the 6 Western conference events participated in is year is 1200 miles and that is only after staying in the Pacific Northwest for a week between two races to average the 3000+ mile round trip down to 1500 miles for those two races. After the upcoming Laguna HST and the VIR Runoffs our total years travel will total out at 15,000 miles.  Committing this many miles and time attending SCCA Events makes it very important to focus on the things that matter when we get to the track.  Being put to the back of the pack and loosing "times" over a tire quality issue or some other event is not something to encourage attending these events and if you do not think points play a role, how much time and effort do you think Jim has committed to obtain his perfect 150 point Six Race HST win total?  Good Job Jim!  If I remember right you have done this at least once before.

 

I have no insight as to what Hoosier might consider doing but I think we should ask them to look at doing something different and see what they would propose.  The current HST tire contingency used to be the same as the Majors events so Hoosier has already cut back on the amount of tires they were providing through the contingency program on the Majors level.  Don't forget that Hoosier also gives a large amount of tires in support of the Runoffs (one set of tires per competitor typically).  If we implement this 4 tire sticker system for Runoffs it will reduce the amount of tires sold during the Runoffs even if 8 tires are allowed for this unique event. 

 

A "3 for the price of 4" tire offer is not an uncommon Retailing tire incentive plan and I fail to see how you cannot consider that this program has the ability to shift the majority of Hoosier tire incentives or contingency away from those running at the pointy end of the field to a wider Participant based distribution running in the Majors and HST events.  

 

Using your interpretation of how things are likely to work I would have to agree that I would prefer no Tire Marking program going forward if the one adopted would not allow working through previously cycles tires during an event based on circumstances that develop. 

 

As a two man operation we would now need to find a Lawyer to advise us through the example rule set put out earlier.  Like I said earlier, our time at the track needs to be focused on doing track set-up and data analysis not preparing tires for inspections and getting signoffs from god knows who or when.  I am more than willing to be constrained to the use of only 4 new sticker tires per weekend and typically already do this but do not want to be prevented from incorporating prior Heat Cycled tires especially in an event where we are not competitive but want to save the stickered low HC'd tires to race another day.  Especially concerned of being put to the back of the pack while not utilizing more than 4 sticker tires at the event.  This rule would make withdrawing from the entire event the best option.

 

The 4 sticker program will pretty much dictate everyone to the same tire strategy where as now there is a lot of flexibility and different strategies in use which is a good thing to have in competition racing.  

[Jim Drago]

A few things.. over the weekend here, I would say very conservatively , 75% or more bought/brought one set of stickers or more. My true opinion is much higher than that. I used two, preston and Todd two. Not sure on everyone else.

It seems there is some misinformation and push back using this plan is only saving the top guys money. That simply is not true. It levels the field and saves most, not all but most money. Nothing will be perfect but we should do what helps the majority of the class. 

So again, the people in the minority who did not buy stickers, still don’t need to, it costs them no more money. Meanwhile 75% under this plan would either be not effected or save money.

One of the stewards liked the plan and came up and gave me a good suggestion.. 8 stickers.. put one on inside and outside of your four tires in case of tire rub

[Steve Scheifler]

Rich, you said “Using your interpretation of how things are likely to work I would have to agree that I would prefer no Tire Marking program going forward if the one adopted would not allow working through previously cycles tires during an event based on circumstances that develop.”

And I think that is perfectly valid, landing you firmly at “NO” on the proposal. Fair enough. At the same time, I am 100% NO on your counter-proposal because it is fraught with complexity and therefore inevitable unintended (though I think mostly foreseeable) consequences. We don’t buy used tires and there is nobody nearby to get them from anyway. I don’t want to rely on someone else’s word about prior heat cycles, track surface, or how they were treated. Been around a LONG time and seen a LOT of people get junk for their $ in the used tire market. What I don’t want is leftovers after a set is run at 10/10s, from sticker, for a full Major or HST event. To me those are not worth the cost of shipping and mounting. If you have reliable sources, excellent, but not everyone does, and demand increased significantly so would the price. And the plan would likely reduce supply. Also, shipping for individuals is far more expensive these days than it is for companies with negotiated rates. And frankly, the very way you describe it sounds patronizing, at least to me, as if take-offs should be good enough for Joe. Not what you meant, but read it again because that’s what it sounds like.

I have no idea why SM variants or regions that choose to do things differently are relevant. A lot of non-majors races are run with the spec tire.

And yes, absolutely, you place the burden on those in non-majors events who choose to buy new tires as needed rather than try to rely on someone’s leftovers. Not unlike the shipping deals I mentioned above, or every medical insurance contract, etc., anyone outside the special deal ends up paying more. They’ll deny it. They lie. And Hoosier has an exclusive contract already, they don’t NEED a marketing gimmick. And, those marketing discount deals are to INCREASE volume, not to enable a scheme intended to REDUCE sales.

Look, I have already said I’m doubtful about applying the plan below HST, and therefore acknowledge that it fails to address any of the cost issues which play a part in the decline of participation in those events. So at least initially I am a YES for HST if a majority of regular participants are for it, and I am a NO for the rest. So far, efforts to come up with proposals that make it practical to extend a plan to all Majors have only solidified my position.

[Steve Scheifler]

To reiterate what works about the plan at the HST level, with respect to tires ANYBODY can be on even footing with the deepest pockets for the cost of a set of stickers. If you never buy new tires then you maybe don’t belong running HST, it is the premier product and all are welcome but it is not intended to attract the occasional or budget racer. I see nothing wrong with that given how limited the series is. But if you do occasionally buy new tires then your foray into HST is probably the right time. It need not be “extra” tires. Sure, a few may opt out, but it is reasonable to believe that at least as many will increase their participation given the cost control and tire parity enforcement. Sure there will be the occasional inconvenience to authorize an exception or contest a ruling, welcome to an imperfect world!!! If that mere potential is too distracting to focus on your FOUR sessions spread across two or even three days, then vote against it.

[Martinracing98]

So again, the people in the minority who did not buy stickers, still don’t need to. Meanwhile 75% under this plan would either be not effected or save money.
 

I was in the back half of the field. Most around me brought stickers to both races. The 4 sticker plan would have had me on much closer grounds with the 2HC tires I brought from home race. Again I would limit to HST. Then if it works well, figure out how to possibly implement for other large non HST. I do not want to see it at my local "Major" race that last time only had 3 SM.

[powerss]

BUMP.  I never heard a response from anyone.

Any answer to the question about what is the repercussions for violating the sticker rule?

 

The scenario I am wondering about is.....

 

1) I run my first session and declare my tires with stickers and have a set time gridding for the weekend.

2) I run my 2nd session with an old set of tires to get track time for learning the track or trying a setup change even though I think my time will be slower but I don't want to waste my "Good" tires for later sessions.

 

Do I just lose my time for that session or do I get moved to the back for the next on track session?

 

My opinion is that the only thing that is affected by not running the sticker tires in a session is that I lose my time for that specific session.

 

Is that everyone's interpretation?

[Tom Hampton]

BUMP.  I never heard a response from anyone.

Excommunication.

My vote would be "start from the back in all remaining sessions". But, I'm an "off with their heads" sorta guy.

The only exception being an on-track incident where the other driver was "at fault", which ruined the tires.

And also, they have to do a lap of the track, on a bicycle, in their underwear...at lunch.

[Jim Drago]

Any answer to the question about what is the repercussions for violating the sticker rule?



The scenario I am wondering about is.....



1) I run my first session and declare my tires with stickers and have a set time gridding for the weekend.

2) I run my 2nd session with an old set of tires to get track time for learning the track or trying a setup change even though I think my time will be slower but I don't want to waste my "Good" tires for later sessions.



Do I just lose my time for that session or do I get moved to the back for the next on track session?



My opinion is that the only thing that is affected by not running the sticker tires in a session is that I lose my time for that specific session.



Is that everyone's interpretation?

 

This is just a proposal, no rule.. so what I proposed can be altered any way they see fit. But I will answer as if adapted as requested. 

 

I assume you are talking about timed sessions?  Qualifying or races?  You can run whatever tire you want in official practice. 

 

 

If you run any set of tires other than the set you declared.  You lose your times for that session only. No way to tell what before?  But I am sure they could make that penalty to eliminate both qualifying sessions if they felt it needed to be done?  

 

If you run the second session with the wrong tires and dont get called in to tech, no penalty. Just like pulling your plate for a session and not getting called in. 

 

 

Jim

[OrangeCrush86]

What's the penalty for affixing "sticker like attachments" to your tires so they look correct from 10 feet away?

[Jim Drago]

What's the penalty for affixing "sticker like attachments" to your tires so they look correct from 10 feet away?

again, no plan in place..

 

My penalty would be disqualification and sent home from the event and if possible a fine, followed by probation

[lillyweld]

What's the penalty for affixing "sticker like attachments" to your tires so they look correct from 10 feet away?

 

To me, that looks to be the same thing as someone having a purple restrictor in their car that is actually size 40mm instead of 38mm.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

To me, that looks to be the same thing as someone having a purple restrictor in their car that is actually size 40mm instead of 38mm.

 

 

Damn i was wondering about that aftermarket one I just bought from Jim

[Tom Hampton]

Damn i was wondering about that aftermarket one I just bought from Jim

Did you get the Dargo model?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Did you get the Dargo model?

 

Rather not divulge which Jim it came from, but none of the ones I know are any damn good, very mean spirited.

[Tom Hampton]

... very mean spirited.

Aren't we all?

[Jim Drago]

Aren't we all?

apparently just me

[Steve Scheifler]

The initial samples that I received are of the type that can be removed but show “Void” or whatever through them when you do. Despite the fact that the SM7 sidewall is textured the adhesive sticks well enough to prevent tampering IF applied with significant pressure. But I was able to apply them with light pressure, remove them an hour later and re-apply without showing void. Obviously there’s a chance that on track they would come off and I haven’t been able to test that, but I suspect you might be able to get away with it. I also tried a couple samples of a “master” sticker for the car and was unable to place one on lightly enough to get it off again intact. I think the best place for them might be on the windshield just below the tech sticker so it would be visible and more difficult to disguise attempts to make it removable.

Of course tamper proof stickers and seals are designed with the assumption that the person applying them is not also the person with incentive to tamper with them. I suspect that with a little effort these could be beaten, so I’d still like to try the type which shreds on removal.

I was working with a new tire and noticed several small yellow & black numbered stickers on the inside. They certainly don’t want to come off intact but of course they’ve been on there for over a year and I don’t know at what stage of production they were applied. Still, it might be worth learning their source.

[Tom Hampton]

apparently just me

Nah.

Caveman just hasn't met me in person. I just pretend to be nice on the internet, to throw people off.

[Jim Drago]

The SMAC call was last night, its been dead silence... 

Sure hope personal agendas and grievances against where the proposal came from didn't get in way of what's best for the class. 

Time will tell, but feel fairly certain a thank you for your input the rules are fine as written is in my future.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

If this doesn't go to the members of our class to decided through crb input imo every smac member against that should be removed from his possition. It is our class it should be up to the racers!