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Hoosier vs. Toyo: Provide your feedback after a year

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Poll: Driver feedback on Hoosier vs. Toyo switch (64 member(s) have cast votes)

How many sessions did you get from the SM6 compared to the RA1?

  1. More sessions (4 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  2. Same sessions (19 votes [29.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.69%

  3. Fewer sessions (41 votes [64.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 64.06%

If the tire decision for 2013 were up to you, would you stay with the SM6 or go back to the RA1?

  1. Stay with the Hoosier SM6 (31 votes [48.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.44%

  2. Go back to the Toyo RA1 (33 votes [51.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.56%

Where do you finish in the field?

  1. Front third (39 votes [60.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.94%

  2. Mid-pack (22 votes [34.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.38%

  3. Back third (3 votes [4.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.69%

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#21
Johnny D

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Just for the record guys, Brian is the SFR SCCA SM/BOD.
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#22
Tom Sager

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I still vote open tire for SM!!!! I know it is a Spec Class, but open tire curbs the spending and brings in more "tire war" sponsors. The guys who spend money now on stickers every session will keep on spending...it won't change the outcome but it sure will keep the overall cost of tires down!


Yeah but it will also result in contracted drivers getting free tires and possibly special tires for a select few. Have been down this road before and it's great if you're in the inner circle. Not so good for the masses. It really sucks when some guys are running stickers every session and not paying for them. I suppose we could write rules prohibiting this but those would be very hard to enforce. Years ago I had some "special" rain tires given to me by one manufacturer and there were only a few sets given out and they were better on a wet track.
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#23
fishguyaz

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moose, thanks for the heads up on not all regions are open tires at region events for SM.
i will find out before traveling.

brian,
saying no input from those who have not used the hoosiers may be a bit limiting in your feedback.
I havent driven on the hoosiers, and if the tires were paid for by someone other than myself the hoosier would be my tire of choice.
my issue is I own and race 2 cars. a FF, and the SM.
formula cars use soft slicks, and its a tire war of who has the money to have the newest tires for the race. this equals alot of $ to (even have the opportunity to)race with the guys at the front.
I run my FF with a group that uses a hard compound slick which last a very long time. I could never justify the cost of tire for a weekend. this was the draw that brought me back to SM, i had left to go race open wheel. the ra-1 was a bargain considering it had a long useful life. pro engines aside and all the rest that changed, the tires(RA-1) were the thing that kept the class cost reasonable.

reading this thread and some of the above comments confirm my thoughts on the cost of tires alone just to have the opportunity to run up front. its just hard to justfy, so i figured i just run my toyos and do the regionals rather than nationals.
the majors will change all of that next year, so thats where my question about regions with open tires came up since we will all be "regional drivers" next year.

Isnt choosing to not even purchase them for the reasons above an answer to your question.
I hate the idea of needing to cycle a set of tires at an event before i can really even flog on them, not to mention the useful life of them.
my vote which is not in the poll is I dont even want to buy one set of a tire with these characteristics.

I appologize and am not trying to stir up the pot, just offer another view. I currently have 7 years of national eligibility so i do feel that i at least should get an opionion on a website.............dont you think?
thanks, Josh
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#24
mdavis

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I wonder what percentage of those who said "fewer sessions" actually heat cycled the tires as Hoosier suggests? Hoosier says that they won't provide any more grip by heat-cycling just last longer.
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#25
Justin Baltrucki

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Overall happy with the switch to hoosiers vs the toyos, They are super fast for 3-4cycles and then level off till ~12 heat cycles and they start to get pretty scary. They dont seem to wear out, but the wear is pretty even before they go off. I think the toyo's went off about the same, but the min grip level never got as bad as the hoosiers seem to get. Eventually the hoosiers make the car evil if you go 20+ cycles.

I am against open tire as the hoosiers will go from ~175 each to 234 each in this size. Anyone thinking open tire will save money needs to look at the killer deal we are getting on hoosiers from this contract. Most other race classes are open tire, and I dont see any deals out there other than odd brand tires no one really wants just before winter time. If you have an example of open tire = $50 a tire savings i would love to see it. Its also nice to have our local hoosier guy at the track. I aways had to pay shipping on toyo's. Hoosiers are the fastest, and right now without hit or miss shaving the cheapest to buy IMO.

I also like these tires better for autocross as I like to occasionally mix it up for fun. The toyo's were a real handicap for autocross.
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#26
Brian Ghidinelli

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saying no input from those who have not used the hoosiers may be a bit limiting in your feedback.


Josh - SFR still runs Toyos and we're figuring out what to do for next year. Your feedback is great and we have heard similar; what we're looking for is specifically insight into the year of experience drivers have now with the Hoosier across the spectrum. The reasons you cite are all reasons why we didn't change last year and why we might not change next year.

I hate the idea of needing to cycle a set of tires at an event before i can really even flog on them, not to mention the useful life of them.
my vote which is not in the poll is I dont even want to buy one set of a tire with these characteristics.


The RA1s need to be worn in before they were really ready to use (e.g., test/practice on them first) unless you're shaving to 1/32" like at the Runoffs. I'd rather have a consistent tire out of the box than be juggling 4 sets of tires waiting to get them "in the zone" but not if it means tire budgets go up 25%. That's what I'm personally after with the poll.
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#27
FTodaro

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Maybe this pole would be better delayed until we see what the RA-1 replacement turns out to be. when you compare the RA-1 to the Hoosier its not a fair fight, the RA-1 is not a true racing tire. The Hoosier out performs it. one of the down sides of the Hoosier compared to the RA-1 is its weight, but it has way more stick and you do not need to be a set up wizard to make them perform.

Right now, i would prefer the Hoosier, it takes less work to get the car in the zone. If the RR turns out, to be better then I would change my mind. I do wish that we could get the groups to one tire.

We spend a lot of time on this board talking about what is good for the class, having two different tires and the costs associated with two sets of drys and wets, is not good for the class, it keeps people from participating.

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#28
HoneyBadger - BrianW

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SM6 is no faster than RA1.


I have to disagree with this. At the tracks I have run the SM6 is definitely faster than the RA1. I would expand their usable racing life out to around 4 maybe 5 heat cycles, with qualifying on stickers or 1 heat cycles.
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#29
Jim Drago

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Open tire is great for me personally as I would never buy another tire.. but bad for the class IMO.. I agree with what Tom said. I will also state if you are a sponsored driver for tire company X, and you need tire Y to win.. well, your screwed. If only sponsored drivers get the best and latest stuff of company X and other drivers can't even buy it.. well that stinks too.

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#30
Rob Burgoon

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Open tire is great for me personally as I would never buy another tire.. but bad for the class IMO.. I agree with what Tom said. I will also state if you are a sponsored driver for tire company X, and you need tire Y to win.. well, your screwed. If only sponsored drivers get the best and latest stuff of company X and other drivers can't even buy it.. well that stinks too.


I guess it's not enforceable to mandate that all tires must be available for purchase, they could make a different compound in the same mold.
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#31
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I prefer the sm6 having only used them for one weekend, but am a little disappointed at the short life.(after 6 sessions, cords are visible through rubber on one tire). I didn't heat cycle them prior to qualifying, so that is my fault and will look to doing so in the future. What I do like is the confidence and excellent feedback they provide. While the RA1's slip before they grip, creating a brief moment of uncertainty, the sm6 does what it's supposed to on turn in and if it doesn't, you know immediately what your up against. From the beginning it was said that these will help mid pack drivers go faster and imo, that's exactly what they do. Maybe the next move is to work with Hoosier to alter the compound to provide longer life as this will make them a better long term tire for us. I'm sure the folks at Hoosier would like to have this contract again and would be willing to work with us.. ;)

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#32
LarryKing

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FWIW I purchased "pre-heat-cycled" Hoosiers this season and got 12-16 heat cycles out of them before a big fall-off in performance (adjusted for mid-pack talent)

if you are a sponsored driver for tire company X


Sponsored drivers are bad for this class too, IMO.
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#33
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I prefer the sm6 having only used them for one weekend, but am a little disappointed at the short life.(after 6 sessions, cords are visible through rubber on one tire). I didn't heat cycle them prior to qualifying, so that is my fault and will look to doing so in the future. What I do like is the confidence and excellent feedback they provide. While the RA1's slip before they grip, creating a brief moment of uncertainty, the sm6 does what it's supposed to on turn in and if it doesn't, you know immediately what your up against. From the beginning it was said that these will help mid pack drivers go faster and imo, that's exactly what they do. Maybe the next move is to work with Hoosier to alter the compound to provide longer life as this will make them a better long term tire for us. I'm sure the folks at Hoosier would like to have this contract again and would be willing to work with us.. ;)


Check you set up, you should not be cording a Hoosier at 6 sessions. The only time I have hurt the Hoosier is when I had a front right lower control arm bent and could only get -1.8 camber at Hallett. These tires grip so well even when the set up is off they will tear themselves apart.

My experience in a 99

Stickers=uber grip for 4 laps tops
1-5 raceable
6-8 pushing the limits if you flipped them on the rim based on wear pattern, could cycle out anywhere in that time period and anywhere on the track, real eyeopener if you are 10/10s in a high speed carousel

9-15 autocrosser tire

My experience in a 1.6
Stickers= almost too grippy for the little engine that could, also scares the heck out me about tearing up the diff
1-10 raceable if you flip them on the rim based on wear pattern
11-? autocrosser tire
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#34
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My experience in a 1.6
Stickers= almost too grippy for the little engine that could, also scares the heck out me about tearing up the diff


That's ^ almost to funny.

Yup, the bench racer has a 1.6, but no alternate car.
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#35
Alex Bolanos

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FWIW I purchased "pre-heat-cycled" Hoosiers this season and got 12-16 heat cycles out of them before a big fall-off in performance (adjusted for mid-pack talent)


Sounds like you need a datalogger, your butt-lap timer is way off if you really think you got over 10 useful cycles on a set of hoo hoos....
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#36
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Sounds like you need a datalogger, your butt-lap timer is way off if you really think you got over 10 useful cycles on a set of hoo hoos....


Arent you the same mexican kid I saw over behind the hoosier truck grabbing all those garbage tires and having them put on the car before hitting the track at the Mid Ohio National? And werent those winning tires?
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#37
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FWIW I purchased "pre-heat-cycled" Hoosiers this season and got 12-16 heat cycles out of them before a big fall-off in performance (adjusted for mid-pack talent)



Sponsored drivers are bad for this class too, IMO.


When you have open tires, tire companies will sponsor faster drivers.. there are no sponsored drivers with Spec tires

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#38
Kyle Keenan

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I still don't like the SM6, and it's solely my personal view. The driver in me doesnt quite like how the hoosier covers mistakes, I just almost think it's too much tire for the class.

That said, I've got a set of SM6's ready for me to try on a B-Spec, where I hope they hold up a bit better then the RA-1's.
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#39
LarryKing

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Sounds like you need a datalogger, your butt-lap timer is way off if you really think you got over 10 useful cycles on a set of hoo hoos


Moot point - can't afford datalogger, can't afford to buy new tires every 10 heat cycles. Please advise.
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#40
LarryKing

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The driver in me doesnt quite like how the hoosier covers mistakes, I just almost think it's too much tire for the class.


Yep, Vettel says the same thing about the super-softs. :spin:
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