107 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

Moot point - can't afford datalogger, can't afford to buy new tires every 10 heat cycles. Please advise.

Moose may be onto something.

How about we split the class. We low coster's (no datalogers, HARD tires, like those Bridgestone ROCKS from Karting, was it YBX???) from the datalogers/DOT almost slick tires. The name of the game in local Karting (180ish Karts per Sunday) around here was limit the $$$ spent on tires.

[chris haldeman]

The class you seek is already there. It's called ita any tire you want with a speed rating of 130mph. If you guys can't afford data loggers, new tires every weekend heck with the Hoosiers at most tracks you need 2 sets of stickers to qual on. Then you can't afford to be at the front of sm so I would classify you as just doing it for fun and would say if running rocks in ita makes it easier for you to race more often then you should do it. Racing is fun no matter what class or where you finish. This is a hobby right?

[Alex Bolanos]

Arent you the same mexican kid I saw over behind the hoosier truck grabbing all those garbage tires and having them put on the car before hitting the track at the Mid Ohio National? And werent those winning tires?

There are certain tracks where old tires > new but they are the exception and not the rule, well played though

[Michael Novak]

There are certain tracks where old tires > new but they are the exception and not the rule, well played though

Tell us(me) about sebring + Homestead?

[dickcdawg]

As a point of reference, I ran my first set of Toyo RR's (205/50/15) this weekend - have a 1.6 in SM setup, but moved to ITA this year to use up a couple of sets of RA1s. My previous best at VIR on the RA1s has been in the high 2:24's; this past weekend on RR's I ran several low to mid 2:23 laps during a sprint race & a couple of enduros (6 heat cycles total), and my young hot shoe co-driver (IT7 driver, first time out in the Miata) ran as fast as 2:22.1 (this was in the 5th heat cycle on the tires, I ran my best low 2:23 lap in the 6th heat cycle). Car weight & suspension setup was same as when running the RA1s. RR's came from the same at-track supplier that provides the Hoosier SM (Appalachian Race Tire); cost per tire was $2 less than the Hoosier SM tire. So, my first impression for the Toyo RR's is that they are definitely faster than the RA1's; I don't have any Hoosier SM experience so no comparison there. Now to see how well the RR's hold up over more heat cycles...

Dick Hancock
#39SM / #3ITA
SEDiv North

[LarryKing]

if running rocks in ita makes it easier for you to race more often then you should do it

Great idea - next year we can have even less entries in SM.

PS: I might as well buy a CRX while I'm at it.

[chris haldeman]

Sry I was just trying to encourage you to race more often nothing more nothing less.

[Bench Racer]

Sry I was just trying to encourage you to race more often nothing more nothing less.

I realize your response was to Moose but I'll add in, that ^ is exactly what doing hard tires would help accomplish. Where we run may be the same position as today at a lesser cost & we could run more events. Like you said it's a hobby, some people have more recreational money than others.

I previously ran ITA with a 1st gen RX7 before building the Spec Miata. Could run ITA with the Spec Miata, most regions it's all about entrie dollars so the event bottom line is positive.

[philstireservice]

Josh - SFR still runs Toyos and we're figuring out what to do for next year. Your feedback is great and we have heard similar; what we're looking for is specifically insight into the year of experience drivers have now with the Hoosier across the spectrum. The reasons you cite are all reasons why we didn't change last year and why we might not change next year.



.

Did the SFR region have a Toyo contingency this year?

[Johnny D]

^{Yes, for both clubs.
To be clear this is regional and thru AIM tire.
J~}

[Muda]

After a year with the Hoos I feel this way:

1. I spent maybe 3-4x the $ to have the same amount of fun. To be competitive you should run 6 heat cycles or less. So now I have an extra set of wheels and mounted Hoos and have to go to each race weekend with at least one set of stickers. And if there is a test day, practicing on old tires is worthless so there had better be a pretty fresh set on the car to start. With Toyos I only had to make sure I had enough tires to fill the car if I corded one as the last lap was usually the best lap.

2. The Toyo's are a tougher tire to go fast on and put drivers who just put their foot down at a disadvantage. On the Hoos, a lot of turns became easy flat bringing mid-pack field closer. Was it really worth it for that?

3. We're all on the same tires so I wouldn't really care if we were running street tires. What is important is that the costs remain low enough to encourage the large fields. Hoosiers took it the other way.

Nothing would make me happier than to go back to Toyo's or have a Toyo class. And let's keep the Hoosier rains as they are far superior to the full tread Toyos. Sorry to the front running national guys, but no one ever gave me a tire. Contingencies seem to go to other places unknown.
Most racers I talked with last weekend agreed, more or less, with my feelings.
I think regional racers should petition their region to go back to the Toyo.

[Tom Sager]

As a point of reference, I ran my first set of Toyo RR's (205/50/15) this weekend - have a 1.6 in SM setup, but moved to ITA this year to use up a couple of sets of RA1s. My previous best at VIR on the RA1s has been in the high 2:24's; this past weekend on RR's I ran several low to mid 2:23 laps during a sprint race & a couple of enduros (6 heat cycles total), and my young hot shoe co-driver (IT7 driver, first time out in the Miata) ran as fast as 2:22.1 (this was in the 5th heat cycle on the tires, I ran my best low 2:23 lap in the 6th heat cycle). Car weight & suspension setup was same as when running the RA1s. RR's came from the same at-track supplier that provides the Hoosier SM (Appalachian Race Tire); cost per tire was $2 less than the Hoosier SM tire. So, my first impression for the Toyo RR's is that they are definitely faster than the RA1's; I don't have any Hoosier SM experience so no comparison there. Now to see how well the RR's hold up over more heat cycles...

Dick Hancock
#39SM / #3ITA
SEDiv North

That's a very favorable report on the new tire. Sounds like it's faster than the RA1 and may well have a similar competitive life.

[Ron Alan]

After a year with the Hoos I feel this way: 1. I spent maybe 3-4x the $ to have the same amount of fun. To be competitive you should run 6 heat cycles or less. So now I have an extra set of wheels and mounted Hoos and have to go to each race weekend with at least one set of stickers. And if there is a test day, practicing on old tires is worthless so there had better be a pretty fresh set on the car to start. With Toyos I only had to make sure I had enough tires to fill the car if I corded one as the last lap was usually the best lap. 2. The Toyo's are a tougher tire to go fast on and put drivers who just put their foot down at a disadvantage. On the Hoos, a lot of turns became easy flat bringing mid-pack field closer. Was it really worth it for that? 3. We're all on the same tires so I wouldn't really care if we were running street tires. What is important is that the costs remain low enough to encourage the large fields. Hoosiers took it the other way. Nothing would make me happier than to go back to Toyo's or have a Toyo class. And let's keep the Hoosier rains as they are far superior to the full tread Toyos. Sorry to the front running national guys, but no one ever gave me a tire. Contingencies seem to go to other places unknown. Most racers I talked with last weekend agreed, more or less, with my feelings. I think regional racers should petition their region to go back to the Toyo.

I call BS on your first paragragh...maybe 2x the tire budget but 3x to 4x?? We got 12 heat cycles average out of 3/32 RA1's. The first 6 of those were spent in practice or on a $250 test day to wear them down...the next 4 were good...the last couple a crap shoot. And this was because we were to cheap to shave them any more to only get 4-6 heat cycles out of them(like the front runners you mentioned). So you say 6 heat cycles on the Hoosier...I say 6 heat cycles on a RA1...these both in there prime to be competitive. Sounds like a pretty even cost to me(at the pointy end)?? What am I missing?

For the mid-packer who doesn't really slid the RA1, I can see were it will outlast the Hoosier just based on the fact that the Hoosier will heat cycle out sooner(grip wise). So for this reason I'm giving you 2X the cost...but even this would seem a stretch.

This thread was started to help our region come to a decision on a tire for next year. We did not move to the Hoosier for 2012 based on 3 reasons(Brian can correct me if I'm wrong)...

~Keep SM regional race budgets lower
~Stay on the same tire our local NASA region was on.
~Toyo offered nice contingency money(which was given out in a modified lottery format...not just the top 5 guys)

So now NASA is moving to the RR( )and our very large regional SM group is left standing in the field alone.

Do we stay on RA1's, go to the SCCA national tire(Hoosier), or move to the RR and stay with NASA and the Toyo contingency money(which I assume we would also still get on the RA1)?? Gathering info here will help make this decision. But exaggerated info and those who agree with it wont help IMO...

[Rob Burgoon]

I call BS on your first paragragh...maybe 2x the tire budget but 3x to 4x?? We got 12 heat cycles average out of 3/32 RA1's. The first 6 of those were spent in practice or on a $250 test day to wear them down...the next 4 were good...the last couple a crap shoot. And this was because we were to cheap to shave them any more to only get 4-6 heat cycles out of them(like the front runners you mentioned). So you say 6 heat cycles on the Hoosier...I say 6 heat cycles on a RA1...these both in there prime to be competitive. Sounds like a pretty even cost to me(at the pointy end)?? What am I missing?

For the mid-packer who doesn't really slid the RA1, I can see were it will outlast the Hoosier just based on the fact that the Hoosier will heat cycle out sooner(grip wise). So for this reason I'm giving you 2X the cost...but even this would seem a stretch.

This thread was started to help our region come to a decision on a tire for next year. We did not move to the Hoosier for 2012 based on 3 reasons(Brian can correct me if I'm wrong)...

~Keep SM regional race budgets lower
~Stay on the same tire our local NASA region was on.
~Toyo offered nice contingency money(which was given out in a modified lottery format...not just the top 5 guys)

So now NASA is moving to the RR( )and our very large regional SM group is left standing in the field alone.

Do we stay on RA1's, go to the SCCA national tire(Hoosier), or move to the RR and stay with NASA and the Toyo contingency money(which I assume we would also still get on the RA1)?? Gathering info here will help make this decision. But exaggerated info and those who agree with it wont help IMO...

Well, at the SFR tire meeting last year I was the only one supporting the hoosier, but I said that the smart decision for the region was to wait and watch. Sticking with the RA-1 seemed to serve the region well.

I don't think it's any different this year, the decision is RR vs RA-1. And my thoughts are the same, I support the newcomer (RR, I have driven it and generally like it), but the wise conservative move for SFR is to stick with RA-1 for one more year and wait and see.

[Jim Drago]

As I have said all along.. Those claiming 15+ heat cycles on RA1's will get the same cycles on a Hoosier.. I rarely saw more than six or 8 cycles on a ra1.. I started 60% of my tires at 2/32, 20% 3/32 and 20% 1/32... Other than Mid Ohio, I never raced a tire with more than 4-6 sessions, 90% of the time it was session two or three, never one because you had to scrub the tires I have seen Buras win the Sebring National with 12 session Hoosiers, that was arguably the deepest field we raced in all year. I have raced Hoosiers up to six sessions with no issues whatsoever, just don't want to chance running an older tire than that in a race. I also have NEVER cycled my tires correctly other than a few sets here and here as I prefer not to waste the first session cycling the tire, I use it to qualify most times and then race the same tire on session two or three.
The costs are similar and the Hoosier is a better tire, it is a real race tire. It will bring the fields closer, I have this seen this within my own team. More people can drive the Hoosier close to the limit than Toyos. I was faster relative to the field on RA1's, but prefer the Hoosiers. I have never tried the RR

[Bench Racer]

The costs are similar and the Hoosier is a better tire, it is a real race tire. It will bring the fields closer, I have this seen this within my own team. More people can drive the Hoosier close to the limit than Toyos.

Sorry Jim, with this logic ^, let's go to racing Hoosier slicks. What the mell, tire cost is no object. This past weekend with a 1990 ITA Miata (converted SM) & used Hoosier slicks which is a real race tire we were 2 seconds faster/stuck like glue than with Hoosier SM6 the same day. Zero changes other than psi.

If the SM6 brings the mid pack folks closer to the front pack, I presume the Hoosier racing slick will put the mid pack folks in front of the front pack folks.

Ron, this is my second post, I haven't voted, no rant please.

[Jim Drago]

I fixed my post and inserted in your quote, it was early ..
Costs are similar( not posts), someone said within $2 a tire of RR? I should have said the SM6 is far closer to a real race tire I guess I am on the track a lot, see a lot of people that I have raced closely with for years, I know what the power is on their cars etc.. I have seen them improve relative the field on Hoosiers while not increasing any performance on the car. So either their learning curves picked up on Hoosiers or my slowed down or what I am saying is accurate. The Hoosiers ABSOLUTELY let you get away with mistakes that YOU COULD NOT get away with RA1's. Hard to call something like that a fact, but in mind it is an absolute fact. SO you can laugh etc and make comments like the slicks would make mid packers front packers etc. i am just trying to give these guys information to help make a decision, which is the intent of this thread

[Michael Novak]

i like that I know exactly what I have with the hoosiers. 1rst is fastest, second thru 6 is great, practice tire after that. True at almost every track.

I fixed my post and inserted in your quote, it was early ..
Costs are similar( not posts), someone said within $2 a tire of RR? I should have said the SM6 is far closer to a real race tire I guess I am on the track a lot, see a lot of people that I have raced closely with for years, I know what the power is on their cars etc.. I have seen them improve relative the field on Hoosiers while not increasing any performance on the car. So either their learning curves picked up on Hoosiers or my slowed down or what I am saying is accurate. The Hoosiers ABSOLUTELY let you get away with mistakes that YOU COULD NOT get away with RA1's. Hard to call something like that a fact, but in mind it is an absolute fact. SO you can laugh etc and make comments like the slicks would make mid packers front packers etc. i am just trying to give these guys information to help make a decision, which is the intent of this thread

I have used them to my advantage at times also... If you need to find speed, go out on stickers with the fastest guys(not on stickers) and you can learn quickly. So yes some of the mid pack or new guys like me, have been able to pick it up with them.

[LarryKing]

This thread was started to help our region come to a decision on a tire for next year.

Are you sure about that? I saw no mention of a region and this thread is under "Spec Miata (SM)".

Bench Racer, I thought IT classes required a DOT tire too. Was this a race or practice?

[Jim Drago]

I am sure. They could have made it a little more clear I guess, but if you read the entire thread, it is petty obvious.Brian is on the Boad out there and they are deciding for their regional program next year.
Jim