296 replies to this topic

[mdavis]

Then just re-open registration back up and let the existing entries, spots and garages reserved stand.
Simple.

Folks- it's all in section 6.4 of the GCR. Again, we'll somehow need to split into two groups and the fastest 85 get to race. This is going to make some folks think twice about towing 2 days but that's the rules. Maybe a contingency would be to race STL for those of us (me being a likely one) not in the top 85.

[Chris Taylor]

Try again webmaster. The GCR doesn't specify you have to have a full day of practice, nor 2 sessions of practice. The region can (as you mentioned) do whatever they want as long as it is a min of 45 mins and 2 sessions. Choosing to do it like you always have is a great answer, particularly for this race and conditions of selling out a group, race entirely etc. If we apply the same logic "do it like you always have" registration was opened and I registered. Therefore I don't understand why I am sitting here 3 hours later and a group somewhere is trying to figure out how to fix anything.

If the slate gets wiped clean and I am able to get in again fast like I did today (9th overall), I am going to register 2 cars in SM taking advantage of my multiple 10 gig network pipes at work. I will sell those 2 slots for $1800 each + entry. Sorry Blake, this is capitalism at its finest

B. Practice/Qualifying
1. All practice and qualifying shall be by race group.
2. Practice and/or qualifying sessions for each race group must
total a minimum of 45 minutes.
3. Each race group shall have at least 2 sessions before their
race.
4. National practice may be combined with Regional practice
and qualifying; however, National qualifying may not be
combined with Regional practice or qualifying.

You guys love to tell me what I said. I didn't say practice had to be on Friday. What about leap years? Does it have to be on Tuesday, then? What about months ending in Y? I assumed that if you read the rule book, you would see the practice minimums, which apparently, you did. So why do you need to insult me, again? How else do you suggest the race chair setup the timeline so that 7 groups get 45 minutes of practice, keeping in mind how long it takes to clean up a 4 mile track when a 60 year old british car dumps oil on 3/4 of it?

I like how you took my wildly sarcastic statement about "thats how things have always been done" and threw it back at me. I don't have anything to do with putting on races -- reason #2 I quit being race chair is nobody would let us do things differently despite the fact that other divisions do it. My eyes were opened the first time I went to a SARRC race. 5 years later, we still can't skip cleanup to after every other session...

[Chris Taylor]

Chris,

This isn't a double national, it is a Majors. majors don't follow the GCR in terms of practice/qual times. They are a world unto thier own.

I'm not an SM driver, but it would be beyond incorrect to not take the SM list as already entered.

Oh good, we can blame the SCCA National office for this since Lone Star Region isn't hosting a Double National!

[MPR22]

BTW, Mike's suggestion of a quaifying cutoff is fair in an abstract sense, but not very practical, IMO. Ironically, once the entry list is finalized, drivers will look it over to assess their chances of qualifying vs. time and expense of travel. A large number will drop out, and the race stands a good chance of being undersubscribed.

Top 85 in the main event SM Group 1. All others to the conselation race Group 2. Group 1 and 2 qualifying broken into 4 session spread over 1- 11/4 hours.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

the way he posted that rule is sales Practice and/or qualifying must equal 45 minutes... I didnt look it up for myself that takes to much energy. but if true as written we dont have to have any practice at all it could be just qualifying...

[Jim Drago]

My one word of serious advice...
If you guys make us go through this fiasco again. PLEASE get all your ducks in a row, settle on a time, say 9:00 eastern on X day and open registration like that..

[Chris Taylor]

You can call it a 30 minute jerkoff competition if you want, bottom line remains the same: there's only so much daylight in a day. Clearly we need to blame the Time Steward for not granting us 32 hours in a day for this event.

[zoomzoom22]

the way he posted that rule is sales Practice and/or qualifying must equal 45 minutes... I didnt look it up for myself that takes to much energy. but if true as written we dont have to have any practice at all it could be just qualifying...

Ding texas stands alone on having all day practice, other parts of the country don't have practice at all sans hardship practice.

I guess my reading is fundamental:


6.4.1 General
A. 1 car in a class shall constitute a class. A car may not compete in
more than one race class in the same race group.
B. Number of Cars allowed on Course
A maximum of 25 cars per mile may be on the course or started
simultaneously in any type of session.
The Division’s Executive Steward may increase or decrease the 25
car limitation for any or all race groups I assume that waiving this would be problematic at COTA (understandable politics).

Further, the GCR lays out how to handle qualifying for oversubscribed classes. It does not say anything about 85 cars, nor how to handle (other than not meeting 120% rule) how oversubscribed class is handled. Unless I am missing something:


E. Each driver/car combination must qualify within 120% of the qualifying
time of the fastest qualifier in his class to be allowed to start
his race. The Chief Steward may waive this requirement and may
allow non-qualifiers to grid behind qualifiers


6.4.3. Qualifying for Oversubscribed Classes
When the number of cars entered into a single class race group exceeds
the maximum number of cars per mile, the following qualifying procedures
apply:
A. The class is split into 2 qualifying groups.
B. The grid is determined according to 6.4.2.
C. Alternatively, if the Chief Steward determines that track conditions
are significantly different for the 2 groups, he may recommend the
parallel column procedure in which one half of the race grid is taken
from each session, and gridded in columns by group, by time. The
fastest car is assigned the inside position on the front row and he
is followed in that column by the cars from his session in qualifying
time order. The SOM must approve this alternate procedure.

[zoomzoom22]

Your questions are answered in the GCR. There are required practice minimums for National events, and the way all Regions in the Southwest Division have taken care of it for Double Nationals has been with a Friday practice day. In the last year or two some have finally gotten creative, but dating back 15 years, this is the way it was always done.

Just wanted to quote what you said here which is wrong and everyone understands is wrong.

[FTodaro]

My one word of serious advice... If you guys make us go through this fiasco again. PLEASE get all your ducks in a row, settle on a time, say 9:00 eastern on X day and open registration like that..

Jim the first rule in negotiating is to never bid against yourself. Unless there is a good explanation for why the current list cannot be used, then it should be used. If the issue is that they want to collect a fee up front, that can be fixed but a deadline to pay. But I am still searching for an answer on whats wrong with the list we have.

PS Blake if we both get in you bring the cigarettes I will bring the Jack Daniels. (that is the real JD)

Edited by FTodaro, 01-15-2013 04:35 PM.

[Chris Taylor]

Just wanted to quote what you said here which is wrong and everyone understands is wrong.

Why don't you quote yourself and the GCR rule with minimum practice for a National you already posted? Now you're even confusing me.

[Chris Taylor]

Jim the first rule in negotiating is to never bid against yourself. Unless there is a good explanation for why the current list cannot be used, then it should be used. If the issue is that they want to collect a fee up front, that can be fixed but a deadline to pay. But I am still searching for an answer on whats wrong with the list we have.

You mean besides the fact that it's not official?

[FullThrottle64]

Looks like the real COTA supps are now linked in DLB.....

[mdavis]

Just as an fyi this whole ordeal is not without precedent in SouthWest division. Been around long enough to remember when the November enduro at TWS was over-subscribed. It was made clear to all that the GCR limit of cars and qualifying would be used. I think we got right to the limit at 72 cars although a few broke in qualifying and not that many started. Not sure why we can't just keep the list as is, open things up again, and go with section 6.4 like we did back in the day? Wait... that'd be too easy.

[Mike Asselta]

If the issue is that they want to collect a fee up front, that can be fixed but a deadline to pay. But I am still searching for an answer on whats wrong with the list we have.

Speculating is fun, if nothing else. You may have nailed the right answer already Frank. The region may have real fees to pay to COTA by certain deadlines. Fine, we already mailed our check, so make a deadline.

I think your speculation is better, but I was figuring a bunch of local Texas guys missed out on registration...who knows?

[scott sanda]

Oh good, we can blame the SCCA National office for this since Lone Star Region isn't hosting a Double National!

Well, it's not a national, is it? it is a Major. majors are still run by the region, just "overseen" by the national office. They don't have min track time requirements.

You also make it sound like cleaning up a 3-4 mile long track is something new. RA and Sebring, (and Miller now) have been dealing with that for a long time. it's not difficult, it just needs planning.

Someone with the authority to turn on registration turned it on and made the link live. That's not the registrants fault, it is the Regions. Handle it as you want, but to say "it's not official" is not true, since it took and official to turn it on.

[mdavis]

Looks like the real COTA supps are now linked in DLB.....

The supps contradict themselves. IA says GCR will be used, IE says there will be a wait list.- This is not how the GCR spells it out.

[Chris Taylor]

Lone Star Region only has something like 300 members. Houston and Texas Region like to bully Lone Star around... I can assure you there's no buddy-buddy or good old boy shitt going on.

[zoomzoom22]

Why don't you quote yourself and the GCR rule with minimum practice for a National you already posted? Now you're even confusing me.

You apparently cannot read?

B. Practice/Qualifying
1. All practice and qualifying shall be by race group.
2. Practice and/or qualifying sessions for each race group must
total a minimum of 45 minutes.
3. Each race group shall have at least 2 sessions before their
race.
4. National practice may be combined with Regional practice
and qualifying; however, National qualifying may not be
combined with Regional practice or qualifying.

Now please quote that and show me where it says what that the minimum for practice for a national is 45 minutes.

Let me help you:

Practice could be 1 minute as long as qualifying was a minimum of 44 minutes. 1 min of practice + 44 minutes of qualifying would equal 45 minimum minutes of practice and/or qualifying (GCR). You missed that I guess. Doesn't say anything about all day practice, nor minimum amount of practice time etc. This would be why guys in other parts of the country don't have practice, yet have 45 minutes of qualifying across 2 sessions and certainly don't take a whole day for practice across 7 groups, particularly with a high amount of entries, possibility of "top 85" in SM etc.

The alternative of course is hope you nail it in your only 15 minute qualifying session and don't throw a belt or something. Although you can watch the race from the sidelines that afternoon and try again in your 15 minute qualifying session Sunday morning

[Chris Taylor]

You also make it sound like cleaning up a 3-4 mile long track is something new. RA and Sebring, (and Miller now) have been dealing with that for a long time. it's not difficult, it just needs planning.

Someone with the authority to turn on registration turned it on and made the link live. That's not the registrants fault, it is the Regions. Handle it as you want, but to say "it's not official" is not true, since it took and official to turn it on.

RA and Miller are both several thousand miles from Texas. I understand what you're saying and you have a valid point in a nice, controlled environment. This is our first event at the track, and the timeline is padded so to avoid... ironically... looking bad when something goes wrong come event time.

I'm not familiar with the registration software. What I do know is that the Region didn't activate registration, or we wouldn't be in this situation.