563 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

Mike,

 

I wasn't doubting the numbers or the statements. I was telling naive people looking at these as the entire story that their are other things to consider. You bring up a good one. Maybe Jim is selecting the NB because of the weight. Does that show on the dyno sheet? I only said that jim saw an advantage in the NB from both the dyno and from the driving and selected it because it gives him an advantage. Tell me what is so sensitive in those statements.

[Mike Asselta]

Mike,

 

I wasn't doubting the numbers or the statements. I was telling naive people looking at these as the entire story that their are other things to consider. You bring up a good one. Maybe Jim is selecting the NB because of the weight. Does that show on the dyno sheet? I only said that jim saw an advantage in the NB from both the dyno and from the driving and selected it because it gives him an advantage. Tell me what is so sensitive in those statements.

I'm not a sensitive guy, so all is good.  Now, there are dudes more in touch with their feelings on this site....

[Jim Drago]

Jim,

 

I think you misunderstand my post. I felt my post supported your positions not that it was contracry to them. You bothered because some people on this forum pushed and pushed you. You have been telling them for a long time that dynos don't show the whole pcture. You bothered because of senseless complaining.

 

You would seriously tell a new racer coming into the sport, not just SM but any racing, that what I said wasn't true? That you shouldn't take what competitors say with a grain of salt, take all they say as gospel and that no one will lead you astray whether intentional or not? Wouldn't you be the first to say do your own testing and keep eyes wide open on your competitors?

 

Jamz

Yes I would. I hold myself to different standard than the rest of racers with my position on the CRB, I don't take that lightly.  I am either posting the truth and realistic version as I did  ro not posting at all. To think I would post something otherwise , at least to me is offensive.

 

I have offered this to many in the SE.. I will offer to any competitors that I race against less at the Runoffs or when I am busy. ANYONE who wants dyno my car on any race weekend, just come by, pay for the time and leave me time to work on my car and you can dyno if you like. I have no problem with that and nothing to hide.  

 

I have often suggested we all roll up on Mike Rossinis drum and see what everyone has. I am game as are all my team mates ( team principal decision : )  full disclosure, there is one team that offer does not apply, I think they know who they are

[Craig Berry]

Jim, that was nice of you to share.  I can also understand how people could be skeptical that those numbers are what our team brings to the track (I would be)....Not that it makes any diference, I can personally tell you that many times we have to bring a 99 to the track that I wish had those dyno numbers.  My sebring car was 4 and 2 off that (on the same E Street dyno)....and what Jim is showing is the Upper end of the spectrum.

I really do not want to argue or debate with anyone about what car is better, I do not know enough to know.   I chose a 99, because that is mostly what Jim builds.   I had so much fun this off season doing all my testing in a 1990 1.6...THANK YOU Chris and Luke!    I guess sometimes I think we are all so caught up in the Dyno, we loose sight of the real art of Setup, Tire pressures, Driving Skill and Race Craft.   I am not saying you do need horsepower to compete at the large races, just think other things can be over looked.   Jim, Danny, Andrew,Todd and others are very talented, very smart drivers.  They need good equipment, but you could give 3/4 of the field the same car they are in and get very diferent results.

[Jamz14]

Jim,

 

I am not making a statement as to your opinion. I am making a general statement as to racing and competitors. This forum is mainly useful to relative newbies that need help and advice to get up to speed. I treated you with the utmost respect by including you in the group that all new competitors should take things like dyno numbers with a grain of salt. If someone you didn't know told you something, wouldn't you listen to it but then do some of your own home work when it comes to racing? Isn't that exactly what wheeler and Jim Daniels books and guides say? I would have thought, not known, you would say the same thing to anyone else. But you are getting upset at me because I included you in that group. That was a sign of respect for you by me, not a slam.  I never said that people are purposefully misleading anyone. Just that it is unwise to think that everyone is not.

 

Just to clear the air then. All, I have never found Jim Drago to be anything other than helpful. I completely believe that his interests are for the benefit of the class and not him personally. I trust Jim to supply me parts and believe his reputation in the sport is beyond reproach.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I disagree with Jim on a semi regualr basis,  sometimes he thinks I have taken it up as a career,  it might drive him nuts but at the end of the day we are still friends and he still respects me and my opinion...

 

and Jambo, jimm is just just liek all the rest of us humans, sometimes we all speak with a forkedd tung...

 

I think you just torked off that all your complaining about the 1.6 goes nowhere, hell even Mueller has it pegged, and he pays about 1/100th of the attention to forum than most of us do...

 

Now back to you complaining about the little 1.6 that could....  

[john mueller]

Patty you really have no idea what your even talking about so stick a plug iin yourpie hole!!!!!!

 

I disagree with Jim on a semi regualr basis,  sometimes he thinks I have taken it up as a career,  it might drive him nuts but at the end of the day we are still friends and he still respects me and my opinion...

 

and Jambo, jimm is just just liek all the rest of us humans, sometimes we all speak with a forkedd tung...

 

I think you just torked off that all your complaining about the 1.6 goes nowhere, hell even Mueller has it pegged, and he pays about 1/100th of the attention to forum than most of us do...

 

Now back to you complaining about the little 1.6 that could....  

 

HA.  Kyle such gentle tack you have - NOT!  I like it brother.

 

 

I'm just gonna copy my post from the Proposals thread...  It pretty much sums up how I feel about this parity noise:

 

"Even if we instituted a HP to weight ratio limit the better brakes & handling of the NB would become more of the difference (it's not just power folks).  Do we then spec rotors & pads for specific yrs, then different shocks for each year?  Our rule book is a funkin mess already...

Bottom line is this: Pat (with all due respect) is gonna complain no matter what is done and folks who think 1mm in a RP and/or -15lbs will miraculously put their car on the podium (nationally) will remain delusional, again with all due respect.

 

Really.  If anyone can say with a straight face that overall 2012 & this season so far are worse than 2009 then I'd like to hear your reasoning as see your proof to support the claim.  Otherwise, stop pandering for the year you campaign and take my job as NASA's National SM Director cuz I'm getting tired of the biased noise.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought...."

[David L]

Drago, your a dick for even starting this thread and making me read it, again like so many times before. If you are not winning lets face it YOU suck or YOUR driver sucks. In the dc region we have several top flight cars that don't even crack the top 10 because they just don't have the skill,prep, grease and all the other things it takes. HPis 1 thing. The majority of front runners that post videos on this site and contribute to this site are simply much better than the rest of us. So much so that you can't even fathom it. If I drove one of Drago's Steyn's or any of the other cars I would not win. These guys put in unimaginable time and effort and there rewards should not make people angry, although it seems to. This is the BEST DAMN RACING. The cars are as close as ever and people should stop bitching because you look like a bunch of bitches that we are all laughing at behind your backs. Jim please lock this thread. I can't take it anymore.

 

Lets talk about COTA again.    

[Michael Novak]

SInce everyone is reading this thread---I thought I would do some advertising for a race in my state..

 

Come and Race the MAJOR at MIS(Michigan) May 24-26.

 

ALL cars are welcome  1.6, 1.8NA, and 1.8NB.   The track is freshly repaved and no one has raced on it since the mid 90's.

 

As a bonus---All the stars of the sport will be there for a school on Friday during practice....  I made that part up--but it would be great if they would all come, skip practice and help the rest of us weenies and then have at it for the rest of the weekend for fun....

 

And for the Texas and Florida drivers...  I have driven down to your states  COTA-Sebring..  Time to return the favor... 

 

 

Now back to the anger.....

[Bench Racer]

The rules and racing are better than every, despite the opinions of two people that don't even race the cars, not a slam, just reality.

 

David has raced once in last 6-7 years and Pat never. 

 

 

 

Lots of experts who don't have a clue what they are talking about.

 

 

Jim Drago, your the guy that per you knows it all.

 

 

 

Here's some real facts for you.

 

 

From about 06 till 11 I didn't drive one race because I was having fun twisting wrenches on someone elses race cars, Spec Miata and production. The driver along with other racers continiously gave me $hit because the entire 5 years I had a 1982 RX7 AND A 1990 Miata ready for a cage.

 

 

Did two or three race weekends during 2011 with my self built Spec Maita.

 

 

Last season 2012 I raced SM and SMT in april at the Farm.

 

 

2012 June 10th had Cataract surgey that was a failure.

 

 

After surgery, BLIND (couldn't see anything) in one eye utill a second surgery Sept 12th which was 3 months later.

 

 

Entered the 2012 Oct. race at the Farm, didn't go becasue I don't race in the rain. It rained both days.

 

 

 

 

 

It took a little tractor to get you off the stump and post you dyno graph. Nothing in your graph or Danny's that surprised me one bit. Took a while to get some transparency, thanks to Danny and you. I'll talk with either of you face to face. Now that you've posted your graph you'll see no more 1.6/99 dyno posts from me and not because I'm embarrassed because dyno numbers are dyno numbers and my DynoPac numbers are good. Previous to the dyno graphs being posted, it was all opinions with BS slid in on the side. If I thought anyone (group conversation) could have a logical (without a side order of BS inluded) site conversation about the 1.6 and 99 parity I would take part. The thread wouldn't go more than 6 posts before it would tanget to no where.        

  

I don't have a clue why the spaces are sooooo large.

[Tom Sager]

It's easy to get all jacked up on a thread like this and there is still some room for bitching but not much.  I've done some of that. A look back and it's hard not to see that we've made some meaningful progress in the rules.  The big pluses that I see are that we've pretty clearly defined the engine rules making it easier for anyone to build or buy good power.  We've narrowed the weight gap in the cars which should help them race a bit more closely (when your foot is not on the gas) and we've got adjustable FPR's which make it easy for everyone to tune the cars whereas in the past people were doing this behind the curtain. These are all recent changes and excellent ones that have improved the class.  

 

Like any product or project, there are always refinements that can be made which result in improvement and I expect that we'll still find some of those.    

[Jim Drago]

Jim,

 

I think you misunderstand my post. I felt my post supported your positions not that it was contracry to them. You bothered because some people on this forum pushed and pushed you. You have been telling them for a long time that dynos don't show the whole pcture. You bothered because of senseless complaining.

 

You would seriously tell a new racer coming into the sport, not just SM but any racing, that what I said wasn't true? That you shouldn't take what competitors say with a grain of salt, take all they say as gospel and that no one will lead you astray whether intentional or not? Wouldn't you be the first to say do your own testing and keep eyes wide open on your competitors?

 

I don't think I did. I wasted time putting a realistic plot of the three good versions I have here.  Within minutes of posting,( you were just the first, there would have been others). you say take it with a grain of salt.  That is why most don't bother posting this information.  Your advice in general was accurate. In trying to put legitimate facts out there, both my graph and Danny's are called out and said to be skeptical of them.  Is that good advice?  Probably so. Does it make either of us likely to ever bother wasting time to post again? Do we even need to answer that? I would have posted a week a go, but I knew better  

So in short, your opinion is accurate, I'm not mad, frustrated and under appreciated maybe. This is a no win scenario..  

SMAC needs new members, so send in your resumes if you want to volunteer.

 

My opinion, We need rewards weights or affirmative action in SM I guess.  

[Forrest Landy]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to bring up SM5 . There is only one engine supplier/ builder in SM5..... Mazdaspeed. Now when I've brought this up previously people have said, and rightfully so, that there will always be some argument about something that isn't fair between cars and that this is part of racing, this is true. I personally would applaud a driver more for investing in skill and coaching then power to gain time, I think its more beneficial in the long run and will give you a lower immediate lap time then just spending 6-8 grand on an engine. I drive a 1.8 SM I have had dyno numbers from sub 100 to 115.... I always try to walk away from a race weekend with what was it that I could have done differently.... not what could have been different about the car.  This isn't the Formula 1 World Championship.. its Spec Miata its a 10 dollar trophy and it's supposed to be fun. I'm lucky enough to have a brother that's faster then me so I am far more concerned about parity with him then with the rest of the field.....     

[Brocodile]

Let's pause, take a deep breath, and put things in perspective.

On the "grain of salt" front, it's been said by several, but cannot be over-stressed: power and torque are only are part of the puzzle. They tend to be the focus of discussion because they are easy to measure and easy to blame or credit for the outcome of races. The fact is that the advantage gained by that last increment of power so eagerly sought on the dyno can be more than offset by a single dragging caliper, or simply thrown away in the corners by a poor setup, not to mention poor driving. Jim is correct, and it's a mistake to ignore it: speed is a whole-car thing. And the driver actually matters as well.

On the parity front, the subject is only relevant at the extreme pointy end. It's possible to run mid-pack in any year car, so where's the beef? When it comes to winning, Todd Buras, for one, has demonstrated that a well-driven, well-prepared 1.6 can win on the national level under the current rule set. Is it easy? No, it's not easy in any year car. It's not supposed to be.

I have personally witnessed the time and effort the winning (or would-be winning) drivers devote to prep at the track. I am certain that that level of effort extends to the shop as well. I also have seen the level of testing and data analysis which takes place. All this takes time, money and dedication which few are willing to devote, but that's what it takes if you want to have a chance to win.

I know Jim has put in the whole-car effort. And he can drive. If he's a little sensitive about all the emphasis on a relatively small part of the winning equation, it's understandable.

[FTodaro]

I've been drinking Kentucky Bourbon Barrell Ale sine January.  Good stuff.   I'm hopeful that will give me an edge.

Well if your going to Race MIS bring some to share I will bring some local brew. then we can talk parity in the right frame of mind.

[Danny Steyn]

I have no idea of Danny's opinion, but "I" felt that we were as close on power as we have ever been, I think he actually drafted past me as easily or perhaps even easier than I did him. I would say we are within 1/1, but that is my opinion, not sure on his, maybe he will share. 

 

 

 

hey Jim 

First let me answer your question. Yes I think both our cars are really close now, closer than ever. Not too much difference, but I do think your car was a bit off this past weekend at Road Atlanta.

Second let me say thanks for posting the relative dyno plots. There is a LOT of information in those comparative plots, most already widely understood, but perhaps not by all

So let me ramble on with my own opinions, for those that have any interest ...... as I said just my opinions
 

 

• The 01 era car appears to be the easiest car to drive, I have also heard that it handles well, and I suspect that there are several 01 builds in the works. It just that the HP falls flat at high RPM, but people have noticed that the 01 can be competitive.        

• The 1.6 car is down on torque low down, but its torque survives better in the important RPM range where all the others are falling off quickly, and its horsepower continues to build. To get the 1.6 car to work, you have to keep it “on the pipe” (old two stroke terminology for peaky engine). If you can keep it on the boil, with the low weight and better handling characteristics, it should be a decent weapon. (see talent comment below)

• IMHO the 99 era car is currently the best of both compromises. It builds its torque low down, so if you screw up you can get yourself out of it (where the 90 will require a down shift) but in reality its torque falls off fairly quickly in the RPM range we spend most time in. But its horsepower is decent in this RPM range, whereas the 01 falls off quickly after 6,000 RPM 

 

So if we raced on a track         

 

• with lots of time spent in the 4,000 – 5,500 RPM range, consider an ‘01 or ‘99
• with lots of time spent in the 5,500 – 7,000 RPM range don’t get an 01, consider a 1.6 or 99
• and on a really tight track where handling, weight transfer and agility is required, consider a 1.6

So here are my observations on what has been revealed by those willing to share, and what I have learned myself.
        

• I am fortunate that my cars typically sell what it costs me to build them, so if I suspect that there is a faster model year for me, then I will sell mine and build another.
• Drago and others are in the same category. This category is simple..... and states that those that can, will always select and build the best car to make it easier to win. NO ONE ever does the opposite.
• My advice to anyone who wants to listen, is ….. take a look at the dyno curves above, factor in your skill level and your penchant for making minor but still time wasting mistakes, look at the tracks where you will be spending most of your time, and decide what weapon you want to bring to this fight.
• Then sell your house, sell your wife, sell your first born, and build the car think it’s gonna take to win.
• Set aside a small fortune to fund the travel, entry fees, test days, and tires its gonna take to win.
• NOTE - never forget that some drivers are way more talented than others. Buras has way more talent in his pinkie than I have in my whole body. Buras can get the performance out of his 1.6. I know I cannot, and believe me, I tried. Back in 2009, I thought the hot ticket to win the SIC would be the 1.6. On the test day, Fowler was lapping his 1.6 rental faster than I could lap my ’99. So I rented the 1.6 and never came within 2 second of what I could do in my ’99. Not enough talent, plain and simple.

 

So, if you have a car, and it may or may not be the car to have for the track you are racing, how do you make up for the deficiencies in horsepower/torque/tire budget/talent/setup and all the other variables that ultimately decide your finishing position?

I can only tell you what I am doing, and what I am listing below is actually quite embarrassing, as I wish it wasn't quite this difficult.

 

• In order for me to run up front with the fast guys in SM, I have to spend lots of time on pre-race test days, iRacing simulator time, data analysis and other prep. The test days cost money
• Buras can show up anytime and be fast. I cannot. So I typically put in around 20-30 hours in the weeks leading up to a race in studying my previous video and data, other people's video and data, lots of YouTube videos of other car classes’ lines around the track, and if the track exists in iRacing, then I spend a lot of time in iRacing.
• In the week before the event, I attend Two-Three University every single day. Or more to the point, I take out my daily driver Miata and spend many hours doing hundreds of 2-3 up-shifts if I am going to a track with 2-3 up-shifts. I am embarrassed that I need to do this, but if I don't, I screw up my shifts. And at the front it only takes one missed shift to lose the draft.
• My personal track-notes are copious. Literally hundreds of pages acquired over the last few years, with lots of annotations from instructors and pro drivers giving their approach to each turn. When I was starting out I watched Lamb, Buras and the Pombos, and they made me aware of just how much detail they put in to their track notes.
• In several cases I have vastly different track notes where one drivers emphasis is completely at odds with the other. Note my previous comments to Drago on the Pombo Turn 3 approach a Road Atlanta. Randy Pobst made some really interesting observations on the Spec Miata platform after driving Roger Burdette’s car there (relative to the accepted wisdom pertaining other cars he has driven there).
• In the weeks leading to a race, I call or email the Grand-Am racers and instructors I know, and ask if any track conditions changed, or if they noticed a change in the way that the rubber laid down during their race, or if any changes that surprised them, etc. Very often a DE event or even Grand-Am was on our tracks just before us. 
• I speak to the tire reps to find out if they are hearing anything different from their drivers at the track this weekend. Often tires will respond differently to expectations and drivers will go to the reps to ask what others are doing. At COTA the Hoosier guys were very helpful and their knowledge paid dividends. And at the recent Road Atlanta Majors, the Hoosier tire performed exactly the OPPOSITE of what it had done every previous weekend at Road Atlanta. But we fortunately had learned about this earlier on.

 

So for a relative newbie, what I am trying to do is surround myself with lots of data, as well as lots of experience and advice (much of it contrarian) and I am hoping that great car prep (courtesy Tom Fowler at OPM), a great engine courtesy of Mike Rossini, and a superb data system courtesy of Traqmate, will compensate for any innate talent deficiencies on my part.

I am in awe of those who can just show up and whip my ass without putting in the time. Some things you just have to accept, not matter how difficult it is. Yup there are several drivers in this class that are just flat-out better drivers than I am, and some have whipped my ass with way less car and motor than I had, but that’s not gonna stop me trying to beat them……… blah blah blah

 

Have fun, tear at it guys....
 

[David L]

You have track notes, what the hell are track notes?  I didn't see those in GCR remember if it doesn't say you CAN you CAN'T

[Brandon]

Never met you Danny (but I did rub one of your former car's fenders - John Wechsler's bought it last year ) but that is by far the best summation of what a lot of folks needed to see/read/hear about what it takes to attain success.

 

it isn't about dyno graphs, max output numbers, or any special "magic wheel bearing grease": there are some people in this world who are going to be naturally better than yourself at something.

If you wish to achieve a level higher than this theoretical 'other' person then you'd better put in the time & money to eliminate (or reduce) each and every deficiency you have personally.

 

Yes, this does mean selecting the "right" platform in SM (I too happen to be a chunk but I think I may be a 'slimmer' one than Drago  ; so I went with a 1.8LNA) but the reasons for it involve too many variables to pick one (or four/whatever) as being the key components worthy of changing to improve your outcome.

 

Follow Danny's advice.  Put your car at the limit** and then when you're confident that's done then you get to focus on what you, the driver, can do to improve the result.

 

L8R,

Brandon

 

** I speak from experience about this since I'm driving a NA1.8 with the 4.1 rear end still (former SSM prep).  Fixing this issue for 2013 so everyone in the NE better watch out! 

[Rob Burgoon]

Oh bullshit.  Having an engine makes everything easier.

[SaulSpeedwell]

I really didn't read any of this thread, but I predicted the 94-97 would slow down (or stay the same) at most tracks when moved from the 4.1 to the 4.3. and I'd like to know if I was right.

 

Any 94-97 guys have data and opinions on life with the 4.1 versus the 4.3?