563 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

hey Jim 

First let me answer your question. Yes I think both our cars are really close now, closer than ever. Not too much difference, but I do think your car was a bit off this past weekend at Road Atlanta.

Second let me say thanks for posting the relative dyno plots. There is a LOT of information in those comparative plots, most already widely understood, but perhaps not by all

So let me ramble on with my own opinions, for those that have any interest ...... as I said just my opinions
 

 

• The 01 era car appears to be the easiest car to drive, I have also heard that it handles well, and I suspect that there are several 01 builds in the works. It just that the HP falls flat at high RPM, but people have noticed that the 01 can be competitive.        

• The 1.6 car is down on torque low down, but its torque survives better in the important RPM range where all the others are falling off quickly, and its horsepower continues to build. To get the 1.6 car to work, you have to keep it “on the pipe” (old two stroke terminology for peaky engine). If you can keep it on the boil, with the low weight and better handling characteristics, it should be a decent weapon. (see talent comment below)

• IMHO the 99 era car is currently the best of both compromises. It builds its torque low down, so if you screw up you can get yourself out of it (where the 90 will require a down shift) but in reality its torque falls off fairly quickly in the RPM range we spend most time in. But its horsepower is decent in this RPM range, whereas the 01 falls off quickly after 6,000 RPM 

 

So if we raced on a track         

 

• with lots of time spent in the 4,000 – 5,500 RPM range, consider an ‘01 or ‘99
• with lots of time spent in the 5,500 – 7,000 RPM range don’t get an 01, consider a 1.6 or 99
• and on a really tight track where handling, weight transfer and agility is required, consider a 1.6

So here are my observations on what has been revealed by those willing to share, and what I have learned myself.
        

• I am fortunate that my cars typically sell what it costs me to build them, so if I suspect that there is a faster model year for me, then I will sell mine and build another.
• Drago and others are in the same category. This category is simple..... and states that those that can, will always select and build the best car to make it easier to win. NO ONE ever does the opposite.
• My advice to anyone who wants to listen, is ….. take a look at the dyno curves above, factor in your skill level and your penchant for making minor but still time wasting mistakes, look at the tracks where you will be spending most of your time, and decide what weapon you want to bring to this fight.
• Then sell your house, sell your wife, sell your first born, and build the car think it’s gonna take to win.
• Set aside a small fortune to fund the travel, entry fees, test days, and tires its gonna take to win.
• NOTE - never forget that some drivers are way more talented than others. Buras has way more talent in his pinkie than I have in my whole body. Buras can get the performance out of his 1.6. I know I cannot, and believe me, I tried. Back in 2009, I thought the hot ticket to win the SIC would be the 1.6. On the test day, Fowler was lapping his 1.6 rental faster than I could lap my ’99. So I rented the 1.6 and never came within 2 second of what I could do in my ’99. Not enough talent, plain and simple.

 

So, if you have a car, and it may or may not be the car to have for the track you are racing, how do you make up for the deficiencies in horsepower/torque/tire budget/talent/setup and all the other variables that ultimately decide your finishing position?

I can only tell you what I am doing, and what I am listing below is actually quite embarrassing, as I wish it wasn't quite this difficult.

 

• In order for me to run up front with the fast guys in SM, I have to spend lots of time on pre-race test days, iRacing simulator time, data analysis and other prep. The test days cost money
• Buras can show up anytime and be fast. I cannot. So I typically put in around 20-30 hours in the weeks leading up to a race in studying my previous video and data, other people's video and data, lots of YouTube videos of other car classes’ lines around the track, and if the track exists in iRacing, then I spend a lot of time in iRacing.
• In the week before the event, I attend Two-Three University every single day. Or more to the point, I take out my daily driver Miata and spend many hours doing hundreds of 2-3 up-shifts if I am going to a track with 2-3 up-shifts. I am embarrassed that I need to do this, but if I don't, I screw up my shifts. And at the front it only takes one missed shift to lose the draft.
• My personal track-notes are copious. Literally hundreds of pages acquired over the last few years, with lots of annotations from instructors and pro drivers giving their approach to each turn. When I was starting out I watched Lamb, Buras and the Pombos, and they made me aware of just how much detail they put in to their track notes.
• In several cases I have vastly different track notes where one drivers emphasis is completely at odds with the other. Note my previous comments to Drago on the Pombo Turn 3 approach a Road Atlanta. Randy Pobst made some really interesting observations on the Spec Miata platform after driving Roger Burdette’s car there (relative to the accepted wisdom pertaining other cars he has driven there).
• In the weeks leading to a race, I call or email the Grand-Am racers and instructors I know, and ask if any track conditions changed, or if they noticed a change in the way that the rubber laid down during their race, or if any changes that surprised them, etc. Very often a DE event or even Grand-Am was on our tracks just before us. 
• I speak to the tire reps to find out if they are hearing anything different from their drivers at the track this weekend. Often tires will respond differently to expectations and drivers will go to the reps to ask what others are doing. At COTA the Hoosier guys were very helpful and their knowledge paid dividends. And at the recent Road Atlanta Majors, the Hoosier tire performed exactly the OPPOSITE of what it had done every previous weekend at Road Atlanta. But we fortunately had learned about this earlier on.

 

So for a relative newbie, what I am trying to do is surround myself with lots of data, as well as lots of experience and advice (much of it contrarian) and I am hoping that great car prep (courtesy Tom Fowler at OPM), a great engine courtesy of Mike Rossini, and a superb data system courtesy of Traqmate, will compensate for any innate talent deficiencies on my part.

I am in awe of those who can just show up and whip my ass without putting in the time. Some things you just have to accept, not matter how difficult it is. Yup there are several drivers in this class that are just flat-out better drivers than I am, and some have whipped my ass with way less car and motor than I had, but that’s not gonna stop me trying to beat them……… blah blah blah

 

Have fun, tear at it guys....
 

Danny

Great post... What I had Saturday is all I have, what I had at the Runoffs and what I have now.  Sunday the car was off a tick. I guess we will see at The Sprints

I always wondered why you bothered with the test day at Atlanta. Your post made me laugh, I thought we were the only psycho's in the class.   Craig and I, Todd and I, Todd and Craig and/or Pat, any  combination of the four spend every ride into and home from work talking about racing, the ins and outs. We do this EVERY day in addition to many of the things you mentioned. Craig and I talk racing an embarrassing 90 minutes a day, EVERY DAY

Jim

[DrDomm]

From Danny...

"I am fortunate that my cars typically sell what it costs me to build them, so if I suspect that there is a faster model year for me, then I will sell mine and build another."

Don't you have an '02 registered at VIR? For real?

[Rob Burgoon]

I really didn't read any of this thread, but I predicted the 94-97 would slow down (or stay the same) at most tracks when moved from the 4.1 to the 4.3. and I'd like to know if I was right.
 
Any 94-97 guys have data and opinions on life with the 4.1 versus the 4.3?

Sammy told me better at some, worse at others.

[Kyle Freiheit]

Just curious why we didn't go the other direction with the ring and pinion swap? Make 99+ use the 4.1. Makes the shift points similar to the 1.6L on most tracks(do to the different redline) and negates some of the benefit of the low end torque of the 1.8.

 

Kyle

 

Anyone have a dynojet dyno of a top shelf 1.8 94-95 and/or 96-97? I made some thrust charts from Drago's dynos and wanted to add a NA 1.8.

[Tom Sager]

I really didn't read any of this thread, but I predicted the 94-97 would slow down (or stay the same) at most tracks when moved from the 4.1 to the 4.3. and I'd like to know if I was right.

 

Any 94-97 guys have data and opinions on life with the 4.1 versus the 4.3?

I've got bunches of data but there are variables every year with the 1.8 that would make the comparisons a little dirty.  The darned car has been yanked around like a yo-yo having run at 6 different weights, on 2 rear axle ratios, 3 types of tires and back and forth using 2 restrictor sizes since 2007.  When we changed the rear end gear we probably had a couple other changes as well.  

 

I'll comment on 2 tracks that many are familiar with.  At Road America I think the 4.3 is a net plus.  Helps up the front straight spending all that time on the hill.  We give a little bit of that back shifting to 5th while the track is still slightly uphill instead of reaching the last crest.   On the rest of the track there are no rev limiter issues or earlier than desired uphill shifts (maybe a little at 13).  It was nice with the 4.1 to be able to use 2nd gear at 5 in traffic and also to use 4th through the kink if slightly off-speed for any reason.  To answer the question better would require some calculations I suppose.

 

At Mid-Ohio it's a tougher call.  We do get on the rev limiter nearing 11 and can't use 3rd gear effectively at 12 when we might otherwise want to.  

 

At some other Cendiv tracks there are pluses and minuses but I think more often we're better off with the 4.30.  

[Tom Sager]

Just curious why we didn't go the other direction with the ring and pinion swap? Make 99+ use the 4.1. Makes the shift points similar to the 1.6L on most tracks(do to the different redline) and negates some of the benefit of the low end torque of the 1.8.

 

Kyle

 

Anyone have a dynojet dyno of a top shelf 1.8 94-95 and/or 96-97? I made some thrust charts from Drago's dynos and wanted to add a NA 1.8.

I have many dyno reports for a pretty good 1.8 but none from a Dynojet with the same correction that Jim uses.  Still your charts would be interesting to see without the 1.8.  

[Johnny D]

I think Kyle was suggesting have the 99 use the 4.1 as a handicap.

I agree the Danny.

J~

[Kyle Freiheit]

This was just quick and dirty but its a comparison using 2013 weights and the numbers provided in Drago's dyno chart.

 

 

[Sean - MiataCage]

On the left coast, how many top notch 1.6's do you have and how many top notch 99's do you have?
 

In the stable I have 7 top notch 1.6's and 3 top notch 99's.  My 99's have Drago power and my 1.6's are consistently 2 to 3 hp less on our dyno.  I believe the parity in the class is about as good as you can get it.  Drago is correct to get a 1.6 top notch it can easily be more expensive than a 99 build now that donor car prices are down.  

 

I won't answer the following questions but here are some things to think about to get a 1.6L to be the best it can be:

 

1. How many legal diffs are there for a 1.6?  Which one is the best? Which axles?

2. What wheel and offset are you running?

3. What does the coast down number on the dyno look like?

4. What tire are you using?  I don't mean what brand.... heat cycles, shave, nitrogen/air, pressures, age.  This can change for every track.

5. How many heads do you need to flow to get 1 good one?  What's a good flow rate?

6. Adjustable AFPR and Intake?

7. Short nose crank? Long nose crank?

8. Setup changes per track.  1 setup doesn't work for multiple tracks.

9. Oils and greases..... There is a difference.

10. Do you have ballast weight?

11. Radiator?  There is a big difference between manufacturers.  Whats your target temp?

12. Exhaust..... Which one, how old, where does it exit the car?

13. Do you have a maintenance schedule for when to pro-actively swap out/rebuild parts?  Hubs, Driveline, Diff etc.  Are you using Mazda OEM parts of aftermarket Chinese junk?

 

For my top notch cars there is easily a 5 to 1 ratio of prep hours versus time on track.  

 

As far as the talent pool in SM, watch some of the recent in car videos that have been posted.  There are night and day differences in how good some of the drivers are.  It has been said many times.... SM has some of the best drivers in the country from any class.  Look at how many of them have moved on to bigger and better things.  I believe to win a SM race in most regions in the country you have to be almost perfect.  The talent pool is just that deep.  I do believe that the 1.6L is a tad harder to drive at the limit based on the geometry changes Mazda made in later years, but that doesn't mean faster.

 

I'm sure someone will try to beat me up for it, so lets address it now.  If our 1.6's are so good, why don't we attend the runoffs.  Quite simply it is too expensive from where we are located up in the Northwest.  I believe it would cost about 20K per car to test, travel, feed, race, time off work etc.  With RA I don't see the benefit of traveling all that distance to have a potential of a very short green flag race.  We will be attending the NASA Runoffs this year and we will be attending the SCCA Runoffs in 14 since it will be on the West Coast.  Most of those cars will be 1.6L cars.  Every year we travel up and down the west coast and have great battles with the California guys who are mostly 99's.  We win some, we lose some, but we are usually on the podium.  We prefer to spend our money on the 25 Hours of Thunderhill since it is closer and I love endurance racing since it gets the entire team involved.

 

At the end of the day for me, I think the parity is really pretty good.  Thank you to those in NASA and SCCA who helped get us here.

 

Danny Steyn posted a great summary of what works for him.  There is some great information in his post.

 

Sean

[Sean - MiataCage]

IIRC at the NASA nationls at Miller at couple years ago, BIG BIRD with the other Todd driving was doing it's thing pretty good until a hick-up of some sort. Ya all remember BIG BIRD ws a 99, correct.

 

 

Then again IIRC there was a dude showed up in the north west with a 99, and spanked everyone pretty good.

 

I would love to know who you are referring to.... Not sure if Utah constitutes the Northwest.  If Utah is NW, then I assume you are talking about Sammy and that car was tossed (again) for technical infractions and a 1.6L car won the NASA Nationals last time it was in Utah.  So we can keep to the facts in this conversation, please tell me what "dude showed up and spanked everyone pretty good".

 

Thanks... Sean

[Ron Alan]

Who the F%%k started this thread  

 

Jim Drago...just keep doing what your doing, you are on the right road! Your information and openness is spot on. Just keep swatting those pesky little blackbirds as they swoop in then disappear till the next time you walk by. 

 

Danny Steyn...thanks for sharing your obsessive/compulsive side...you made a lot of people feel more normal today    And your write up should be read by every SM racer...outstanding stuff!

 

Saul...On the West Coast(Laguna, Sonoma, Thunderhill) the 4.3 change(1.8 car)is better at one track, slightly better/equal at another, and equal/slightly worse at the last. The disadvantage all relates to shift points with the 6900rpm rev limiter.

 

Jamz...I read your first post the exact same way Jim took it. You have a pattern of saying things then needing to clarify when people "misunderstand" you. You would benefit from making your thoughts obvious the first time. It would save all the unnecessary rebuttals. But thanks for keeping your posts shorter   

 

Sean...Great stuff! And make sure you send those boys south soon!

[Rob Burgoon]

I would love to know who you are referring to.... Not sure if Utah constitutes the Northwest.  If Utah is NW, then I assume you are talking about Sammy and that car was tossed (again) for technical infractions and a 1.6L car won the NASA Nationals last time it was in Utah.  So we can keep to the facts in this conversation, please tell me what "dude showed up and spanked everyone pretty good".

 

Thanks... Sean

 

Sammy drives/drove a 1.8, and I still think he wasn't trying to cheat the shocks that last time.

[Ron Alan]

I wish I new why the font size changes when I type???

 

Has there ever been a discussion to allow the NA car to use the NB rear upright/knuckle? Wouldn't this give them the same rear track with...parity? 

 

Big Bird...Todd Lamb?

[DrDomm]

...we will be attending the SCCA Runoffs in 14 since it will be on the West Coast...

 

Sean

 

???

[Bench Racer]

 

I would love to know who you are referring to.... Not sure if Utah constitutes the Northwest.  If Utah is NW, then I assume you are talking about Sammy and that car was tossed (again) for technical infractions and a 1.6L car won the NASA Nationals last time it was in Utah.  So we can keep to the facts in this conversation, please tell me what "dude showed up and spanked everyone pretty good".
 
Thanks... Sean

Please ask the Clown (Jim B.), he posted the info maybe a year ago, could be two years ago. IIRC someone new/newer, was not sammy. 

Big Bird...Todd Lamb?

Drago's yellow car with Todd Lamb driving. Was doing it's thing leading and took a minor $hit for a DNF IIRC.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

At the end of the day for me, I think the parity is really pretty good.  Thank you to those in NASA and SCCA who helped get us here.

 

Danny Steyn posted a great summary of what works for him.  There is some great information in his post.

 

Sean

 

 

Now while I deleted most of Sean's quote, all of it was dead on...  Best post from anyone yet on parity, Also I have to say Donny Steyn did a nice job on what it takes to get to the front,  There are probably only 3-5 guys in the class that can just show up after missing test day, qual right up front in the toughest field and podium.  I am amongst those like Steyn that have to do test day, look at data and vid often, I do this at least every night before the next days sessions, most the time at least look at data throught the day, make changes to setup after almost every session, spend hours turning wrenches on my car before the next race, set the the car up myself so that there is nobody to be blames but myself when I miss the setup entirely.  I dont go out and do a million 2-3 shifts in my street car, and by nature I am not very OCD so I am not that good on track notes but I do have a very keen memory so alot of my track notes stick in my head, lastly I have to admit that i get coaching from some of the best, Including but not limited to TODD LAMB who has become much more than just a coach, he has become a dear friend.   it helps to have some very good racing friends that will watch my vids and take me to the wood shed for some much needed repentance of my on track trangressions Amen...

 

IMO if you are bitching about PARITY, which kind of reminds me of a bad hockey hair cut, business in the front and PARITY in the rear, LOL...  Oh back to my thought I was rambling for a second, If your bitching either you cant drive good enough, cant prep good enough, cant ssetup good enough, cant provide proper driver feedback etc etc and so on.

 

Mueller when I bitched about your changes two seasons or more ago whenever that was, I was in several of those categories.  I am most defintily sorry for being so vocal about yout changes!  Time has proved that I wasnt all wrong in my opinions on the matter, but I was defintily wrong enough on much as I now undstand to borrow a JD frase  "I just didnt know what I didnt know"  now I know some of the things I didnt know back then, and still have much to learn.  But I know enough to know no matter what the rules are or who is winning or losing, there will always and I mean always be btiching and whinning about Parity!!!!

[Mike Asselta]

I really didn't read any of this thread, but I predicted the 94-97 would slow down (or stay the same) at most tracks when moved from the 4.1 to the 4.3. and I'd like to know if I was right.

 

Any 94-97 guys have data and opinions on life with the 4.1 versus the 4.3?

The old ratio was taller in 2nd and 3rd gear, which was convenient for getting up some short hills, round some corners, drag races on straights and hole shots.  This mostly applies at bullrings with lots of elevation changes...not a big deal at longer tracks with more straights than twists.

 

By the same token, I think we've had an improvement in getting torque to the pavement with the current rear end where there is a climb out of a slow corner.

[Mike Asselta]

Just curious why we didn't go the other direction with the ring and pinion swap? Make 99+ use the 4.1. Makes the shift points similar to the 1.6L on most tracks(do to the different redline) and negates some of the benefit of the low end torque of the 1.8.

 

Kyle

 

Anyone have a dynojet dyno of a top shelf 1.8 94-95 and/or 96-97? I made some thrust charts from Drago's dynos and wanted to add a NA 1.8.

We have a fresh 1.8NA with the current restrictor going on the dynojet next week....will post if its as good as we hope.....now I need everyone praying that it pulls like a tractor and spins like tornado.

[Jim Drago]

 Please ask the Clown (Jim B.), he posted the info maybe a year ago, could be two years ago. IIRC someone new/newer, was not sammy. Drago's yellow car with Todd Lamb driving. Was doing it's thing leading and took a minor $hit for a DNF IIRC.

 

Dave

First of all the car had a coil connector come loose, definitely our mistake, not so sure I would call it taking a $hit, but ok. 

 

Secondly, what did you expect that car to do?  What I expected was the best driver in that field with a car that I know was the best I could build at the time should go on to easily win his THIRD NATIONAL title in a row. Instead, what happened was a not so well known and with all due Respect to Andy , not nearly as accomplished driver was ahead of us and beating us when our car took a "$hit" as he was the entire race. Routinely the 1.6 would pull Todd down the long front straight and he would make back the distance again, only to lose again down the straight. I am sure the video is out there somewhere. Buelller? Bueller? I mean Mueller. Not sure how that is all that relevant or helps your cause though.  The rules were completely different then as well. It was also 2009? Not sure how that is relevant now if it even supported your case, I think it hurts your case actually.   So in all seriousness, what are you trying to say there? That Todd should not have been able to win or be competitive in one of our best cars after winning the championship twice in a row? I am confused by the point you are trying to make and I am not busting balls.  

[Kyle Freiheit]

Sean,

  I think he was referring to the 2011 Double National at Pacific where Zabinski won the first National of the weekend. I will let someone else tell the story because I don't know all of the facts and that car was um.... questionable.

 

Kyle