189 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

Could you cite the rule that spells it out?

Rule does not cite bump drafting as legal explicitly yet it's implied by the rule (paraphrased) contact that does not cause a competitor to leave the racing surface or cause visible damage at 50ft/50mph (may have justice that part up).

SCCA: car contact under any circumstances is forbidden. Very explicit.

I could quote the exact rules when I get home but I trust you all can read.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

I WOULD LIKE TO ADD MY OPINION

We as a class are the only class that is spec that is not spec 5 different cars with different specs.

 

bump drafting is a art . team racing plus blocking team chess play equals advantage ps pecking order like jockeys at horse race who`s turn to win

 

single   or weekend warrior one shell left in gun  like the  road warrior.

 

Todd lamb owns the record for engine compression .

ps not sorry to you but rest of community.

were you in that race at the runoffs.

 

kyle weeb good luck

 

Off track data sharing you still have to use talent.

 

Thank you daniels for the computer.

 

an there can only be one

 

and by the way the tool is here and I have it thank you stewart race 

[suck fumes]

LOL!

[Ron Alan]

Bench,

 

I think you are wrong on the general consensus. It isn't that the consensus is that you can't stop it, it appears the consensus is that drivers don't want to stop it!!! Big difference. I also see a contradiction in your statement. You say that nothing is ever going to change, that it would take large balls to protest or affect change. But in the next breath you ask for a rule change to be implemented to force us to mount a cutoff switch that I doubt anyone wants. The ball size needed to enforce the current rule set as Jim described would be pea sized compared to the beach ball size nuts needed to have a rule adopted that no one wants.

 

As far as how many races do I think it will take to punish the hypothetical brake checker; I think that is a better question for you. If it is 1 or over than I say the damage is done. All it takes is one time for someone to ruin someone elses runoff. And this isn't even addressing all the cars stalled on the track for non intentional racing incident contact. I'll tell you what, you want to see people pulling their head out of the sand and rising up in protest? Implement the cutoff switch idea and after one heavily attended track event you will see a revolt.

 

About me burying my head in the sand; Bench, I will take up an argument and, as some here could attest to, champion it against my best interest till the bitter end.  But more than just argue, I pride myself on action. To my folly I have written letters to have rules looked at. I have embarrassed myself multiple times at the request of guys that have much more experience and background for making cases than I do. Again I point out that you even say that certain things are impossible and then you go on to chastise people for burying their heads. It is not burying your head to take up a fools errand. It is just foolish. The point of having gigantic balls isn't to have an easier target for people to kick them.

 

So i said that I pride myself on action. Ok let me live up to that. Here is my offer. You stand up at the next drivers meeting and remind everyone of the GCR you pointed out and that you will protest anyone in violation of that rule. I will raise my hand and announce that I will support you in that and protest any contact as well. You write a letter outlining new wording to the GCR that gives a better way of enforcing it and I will cosign it with you. As long as it doesn't include an unsafe cutoff switch that was meant for crashes not contact. You do this and I will support you because in technicality, you are correct about the no contact rule. I said before that we will drive under any rules that the group adopts and I live by my words. It is my opinion that qual should not contain BDing and team tactics. It is my choice to be ok with my opinion not being the groups choice. Can you live with your opinion not being adopted by the group? This is not burying your head my friend. It is called democracy

Miss ya mate...glad to see your brain is still working at a higher level than many here can comprehend!  But man, help a brother out...i'm a slow reader   

 

AC...show up more often to keep the muckety mucks in check!

[Jim Drago]

Hi all - this is a subject for open discussion that is sure to get everyone all worked up. I do not have any agenda with this, as I am very happy with the status quo, but there was a lot of chatter this past weekend. And this is not something that will be thrashed out prior to the runoffs, as I suspect that this debate will continue well into the off season.

 

In Spec Miata we have all seen team racing played out well by many teams. In the early days, the Pombo’s were the kings, qualifying and racing at Road Atlanta with a sheet of paper between their bumpers.

 

In recent years have seen the East Street team of Jim, Craig and Pat doing an amazing job of qualifying and racing at Road America. I even tried it with Tom Fowler there a few years back although we really sucked at it.  And lest anyone think this is an easy task, those that do it well make it look easy, but it takes at least two highly talented drivers to pull it off.

 

And this past weekend we saw the utter dominance of the SAC team of Matt and Elivan at the Glen in Race 1. They showed it at another level. Two highly skilled teammates totally committed to each other every straight of every lap to the end of the race are pretty tough to beat. 

 

This team racing is very different to the type of racing that most do, forming temporary dancing partner relationships of convenience on the track where drivers are only committed to each other while it works for both drivers.

 

As a class we mostly all like the bump drafting aspect of this class, and at VIR when they asked us who liked bump drafting, the group was overwhelmingly in favor, and I was the first one to put up my hand. So here we are as drivers, we have openly communicated to the SCCA officials that we love bump drafting, and SCCA (Majors at least) has pretty much approved it the way we are doing it. And make no mistake, personally I absolutely love this aspect of our racing.

 

And there is a huge difference in speed between bump-drafting/pushing vs. just drafting.

 

But here is the dilemma, and this is not directed at anyone or any team, as I am as guilty or innocent as the others, this is just to start the dialogue in an open transparent fashion………. 

• Is the future of Spec Miata racing, team racing?
• What does this do to the class? Will it cause drivers to leave in frustration, prevent newbies from joining due to the additional expense? Or will it draw new drivers to the class that like this aspect of racing?
• Where does this end? Do we all need to consider funding a “kept” driver to push us to the win? (If so, welcome the $100k + Spec Miata Season)
• What is to stop the pushing car from being a bit too strong in the power department? If it get’s DQ’d is there anything in the GCR that provides penalties to the car that’s being pushed?
• Should we consider a third driver as a spoiler? Or should we have the 2nd driver enter the pits during the race, and rejoin the race later to play with the leaders? (as seen in GrandAm recently)
• Should we outlaw bump drafting altogether? Or is this even possible in our class?
• Should we embrace the Playboy MX-5 Cup approach which prohibits team members from qualifying together, and makes bump drafting an offense in qualifying (even between non team members) but sort of turns a blind eye to it in the race (Lamb, Buras and a few others that have run this class may be able to shed more light on this approach and what they think of it.)
• And I am sure there are many more opinions and ideas that will be aired here

I feel this is something that needs open and honest discussion for the future of our class.

 

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"  

 

I think our success last year obviously caused people to rethink their situation and now the "in thing" seems to be "teammates" It is almost funny as most have not factored in everything that has to go right for this to even matter.

 

 

The "teams"  as I see it and there are probably more

 

Our gang, Me, Sandlin,Berry and Stearns

SAC of Elivan and Matt

Gorrarian and Tonelli

Autotecknik of Andrew and Alex, maybe Jeff as well

OPM of Danny and SRF Champion Brian Schoefield

BSI racing of Chip VanVurst and Andrew Carbonell

 

I am probably missing a few. 

 

Everyone draws their line in different spots. Our "team" is four guys who are friends first off the track who all happen to have the ability and equipment to win races. No one on our team is funded, provided a car or even receives a discount, just ask them  Our "team" works well because of our friendship, ability and the fact that all of us know we are in equal equipment. When one of us beats the other, we know it was not due to different equipment. Everyone on our team owns their own car and is free to race for wins whenever and wherever we go.  There is no designated "pusher" and certainly no team orders. 

 

If it ever gets to a point where I feel I have to own, fund and field two cars and put some one in the other to help me win a race, I will just retire or move to another class. Fortunately, I think this phenomenon will probably go away next year when we leave Road America, but unfortunately return again in 15 when we go to Daytona. 

 

Yes this is terrible for the class when you have guys at the front funding drivers and supplying cars to help advance their finishing positions. 

 

 

One point Danny brought up above about the pusher being a bit too strong is a very good one. I feel fairly certain that this is a real possibility as well. Not sure how this plays out when the driver being pushed owns both cars? Perhaps a mechanical protest on the pusher and and unsportsmanlike on the lead car? I really hope it doesn't come to this, but I hate to say that I can see the writing on the wall. If it comes to this, we all need to take up golf.

[Mike Collins]

Jim the penalties are VERY unlikely and virtually unenforceable.  Drafting is legal and the SCCA has done a good job this year making it clear what will and will not be allowed. 

 

While I see all of the teams you mentioned doing well, I think you need to address the T3/SM qualifying or you will see teams like Collins/Hines....And I don't care who your partner is, a Nissan pushing a Miata wins every time....

[pat slattery]

What do you do Jim, when the team has a illegal car with 10 more HP and it pushes his buddy to the pole, and than blows tech off.  I say that, not saying that is happening now, but could happen in the future.

[Jim Drago]

What do you do Jim, when the team has a illegal car with 10 more HP and it pushes his buddy to the pole, and than blows tech off.  I say that, not saying that is happening now, but could happen in the future.

 

 

 

That is a very real concern and why I posted another reply this morning. Your example is the least offensive. What if the second car pushes the lead car to a comfortable gap in the race and than either has a "mechanical" and drops out of top 6? Or maybe the second place car makes an "attempt" to pass and goes off track and ends up finishing seventh?  There are some very "creative" people out there.  I posted what I did as all on our team are there to race for the win. I believe that is true of most, but perhaps not all.

 

[pat slattery]

Wasn't pointing fingers about anyone pulling those stunts at the present,  but  we have some creative guys in this class though

[John Costello]

Jim the penalties are VERY unlikely and virtually unenforceable.  Drafting is legal and the SCCA has done a good job this year making it clear what will and will not be allowed. 

 

While I see all of the teams you mentioned doing well, I think you need to address the T3/SM qualifying or you will see teams like Collins/Hines....And I don't care who your partner is, a Nissan pushing a Miata wins every time....

Of course being an ex T3 driver, I may need to call in a favor that may benefit us  Planet Miata drivers!

[CruzanTom]

 I think you need to address the T3/SM qualifying or you will see teams like Collins/Hines....And I don't care who your partner is, a Nissan pushing a Miata wins every time....

 

I had this happen to me during the VIR 13 hour last October. I worked hard for three laps to finally pass another SM on the front straight only to have him blow back by me between T5 and the Esses as he was pushed by a MX5 car racing under his tent.   Karma prevailed as the SM broke his diff and I got the last pass. 

[Andrew Charbonneau]

  Only One

[Andrew Charbonneau]

[Andrew Charbonneau]

cant mirror driving styles except for slowing up

[Andrew Charbonneau]

[Andrew Charbonneau]

[Muda]

So that's what "hooking up" means.  All this time I thought my kids were do'in nasty stuff.

 

Nice to have u back Charb!

[screaming monkey]

If two drivers are working together with an obviously faster than normal pusher and they get away with it because the pusher car backs off to fly under the radar(no tech), then it is up to us to protest. We can't protest the lead cars time, but we can still protest the contact. If the protest of contact leads to investigation of the pusher car, it will get DQ'd as should the car being pushed if they are under the same tent or maybe not. It's hard to prove but if all of us are watching for it, it should lessen the possibility of someone getting away with it. Someone will only do it if they think they can. 

[Danny Steyn]

Some good points being raised, but actually surprised by the lack of debate. Maybe this is because it mainly affects the pointy end of the field.

 

But my personal opinion is, that if allowed to continue the way it is evolving, it could potentially affect the WHOLE class, and potentially the FUTURE growth of the class. Something that we ALL should consider.

 

With the Daytona Runoffs in our future, a race that I am really looking forward to, I would expect a whole new level of team racing being developed specifically for that race

[Bruce Wilson]

Some good points being raised, but actually surprised by the lack of debate. Maybe this is because it mainly affects the pointy end of the field.

 

But my personal opinion is, that if allowed to continue the way it is evolving, it could potentially affect the WHOLE class, and potentially the FUTURE growth of the class. Something that we ALL should consider.

 

With the Daytona Runoffs in our future, a race that I am really looking forward to, I would expect a whole new level of team racing being developed specifically for that race

 

Counterpoint:

 

I like team racing

It's been like this since the beginning, so I wouldn't really say its evolving, just new teams forming.

Daytona is a different story (bring a really good camera!)