310 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

I like the idea of limited tires, to only buy one set of stickers a weekend.  But, I bet hooiser wont like that and jack the prices up. 

Not sure when it became the Hoosier Tire Spec Miata series but if anyone wants to control costs its in the tires.  

[38bfast]

so if you flat spot a set avoiding contact in Q1 its so sorry too bad. 

[chris haldeman]

so if you flat spot a set avoiding contact in Q1 its so sorry too bad.

It would need too be a case by case basis with video proof of contact avoidance. Otherwise the tire rich people would just jam the brakes on cool down lap and flat spot all 4 intentionally. I had too race 3 flat spotted tires and 1 new tire in mx5 cup race last year

[davew]

Hoosier gave us what we wanted, now we are whining.

 

Not advocating anything, but this is the Formula Mazda rule:

 

14. Tires and Wheels

A. A competitor shall start the race on tires used in a qualifying session

for the race as identified by markings made on the tires by a race

official. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that his

or her tires are appropriately marked prior to, during, or immediately

after a qualifying session. On weekends where there are two

races and only 1 qualifying session, this rule may be waived for the

second race.

B. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session, the competitor

may replace that tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief

Steward. Should a tire be replaced for any reason, the competitor

shall forfeit his grid position and start at the back of the grid.

C. Rain tires may be used at any time. In the event that a grid position

is determined by use of a manufactured rain tire (excluding hand

grooved tires), the competitor may elect to start the race on either

the rain tire which was used in qualifying or slicks which are otherwise

compliant.

[Jim Drago]

Hoosier gave us what we wanted, now we are whining.
 
Not advocating anything, but this is the Formula Mazda rule:
 
14. Tires and Wheels
A. A competitor shall start the race on tires used in a qualifying session
for the race as identified by markings made on the tires by a race
official. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that his
or her tires are appropriately marked prior to, during, or immediately
after a qualifying session. On weekends where there are two
races and only 1 qualifying session, this rule may be waived for the
second race.
B. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session, the competitor
may replace that tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief
Steward. Should a tire be replaced for any reason, the competitor
shall forfeit his grid position and start at the back of the grid.
C. Rain tires may be used at any time. In the event that a grid position
is determined by use of a manufactured rain tire (excluding hand
grooved tires), the competitor may elect to start the race on either
the rain tire which was used in qualifying or slicks which are otherwise
compliant.

This got killed when marking of tires came up.. Outside of the runoffs.. I rarely use more than one set of tires per weekend anyway? I think all of us could easily make one set of per qualifying and two races, especially if all had to do so. The marking and enforcing would be the hardest part
Jim

[Rob Burgoon]

You can cut the brake cost off the list.  They amortize and someone could win with my discarded takeoff pads.

 

You can also amortize tires and/or reduce by resale of used tires.

 

 

Also, I feel it's kinda foolish to be including rapid consumables in "car construction" cost.

 

That's a weekend cost, not a construction cost.

 

As for including driver gear... 

[Cnj]

This thread has totally lost the plot.

CNJ

[Johnny D]

A few twist and turns. Want some new threads about SSM vs SM or Tires per weekend/cost cutting ?

J~

[Steve Scheifler]

$10k front running car, junkyard engine, 4 seasons on 2 sets of tires, and you can run at the front? All of that supports my assertion, which is that what makes SSM cheaper is that it is not a Majors class with a bunch of cut-throat teams doing whatever it takes to win. I don't doubt that the sealed engine program helps, but if there were more on the line there would be people taking advantage of that to get maximum power under the curve, and the result there would be a bigger difference in "usable" power than we have between cars of a given spec line now. Without the threat of tear down there is a lot to be gained while staying under the peak HP limit. And unless the new Toyos are magic they are losing significant performance before they wear out, so I think much of that savings is also the result of less "serious" competition. If not, then we need to buy out of the Hoosier contract and switch now.

SSM is 1.6 only? From what I've read so far, that's the most important rule difference because it takes away the toughest thing to equalize. Other than a sealed engine program and maybe different tires, for a bunch of existing 1.6 SM owners to spend money downgrading their cars just to satisfy some arbitrary requirement of a different rules set would be absolutely idiotic. So maybe that's the middle ground that SMSE or similar class could work towards, 1.6 SM rules with a sealed engine program and more economical tires. As with SSM, being non-majors and relatively low profile it won't attract a lot of at-any-cost racers, which is the biggest factor in what it takes to be competitive.

[Johnny D]

Somebody correct me here, I think it's not a majors class because it doesn't have the number nation wide but..

IMO it is more of a "hobby" class, and does lean toward what you've said ^^, so not sure they would travel the required locations to even meet Majors requirements. Hard to say. Anyone ?

We do have a SSM section here under "Other Racing Groups and Classes" with some thread in it.

Collins has some posts and has shown he's at-any-cost with his engine, though less $ than SM I believe.

Falls under a group of people only willing to do a certain amount to their car for whatever reason.
If everyone does the same, the competition is very close.
J~

[Rob Burgoon]

$10k front running car, junkyard engine, 4 seasons on 2 sets of tires, and you can run at the front? All of that supports my assertion, which is that what makes SSM cheaper is that it is not a Majors class with a bunch of cut-throat teams doing whatever it takes to win. I don't doubt that the sealed engine program helps, but if there were more on the line there would be people taking advantage of that to get maximum power under the curve, and the result there would be a bigger difference in "usable" power than we have between cars of a given spec line now. Without the threat of tear down there is a lot to be gained while staying under the peak HP limit. And unless the new Toyos are magic they are losing significant performance before they wear out, so I think much of that savings is also the result of less "serious" competition. If not, then we need to buy out of the Hoosier contract and switch now.

SSM is 1.6 only? From what I've read so far, that's the most important rule difference because it takes away the toughest thing to equalize. Other than a sealed engine program and maybe different tires, for a bunch of existing 1.6 SM owners to spend money downgrading their cars just to satisfy some arbitrary requirement of a different rules set would be absolutely idiotic. So maybe that's the middle ground that SMSE or similar class could work towards, 1.6 SM rules with a sealed engine program and more economical tires. As with SSM, being non-majors and relatively low profile it won't attract a lot of at-any-cost racers, which is the biggest factor in what it takes to be competitive.

 

Assume for the moment that the class won't cheat the dyno.

I think the curve is doable.  You measure the curve at multiple rpm like supermiata is doing, then a junkyard engine is fine.

The tires is the only BS part that I see.

 

Otherwise, I see a true spec class.  Sounds superior.

[Steve Scheifler]

Assume for the moment that the class won't cheat the dyno.
I think the curve is doable. You measure the curve at multiple rpm like supermiata is doing, then a junkyard engine is fine.
The tires is the only BS part that I see.

Otherwise, I see a true spec class. Sounds superior.

OK, even given that (wishful thinking on the not fudging) what would make it so much cheaper than current rules? If you want 100% out of your car, maybe a few hundred bucks per season (amortized) on the head work and keeping rings fresh etc? The dyno & seal aren't free. I just don't see the big savings people claim except that most others aren't spending money to keep things quite as fresh. My point stands, other than dyno & tires, there is nothing to be gained and much to be lost by changing the rules if starting mostly with already built SM cars. And even with a new build I have no doubt that the current suspension package is a net savings long term.

[Jason J Ball]

Jim I am completely convinced that racers calculators all malfunction and spread sheet skills are limited. 

This is entirely intentional, because if we really calculated how much it costs to do this, no one ever would! Or their wives would find this information and shoot them!

[Waterboy]

OK, even given that (wishful thinking on the not fudging) what would make it so much cheaper than current rules? If you want 100% out of your car, maybe a few hundred bucks per season (amortized) on the head work and keeping rings fresh etc? The dyno & seal aren't free. I just don't see the big savings people claim except that most others aren't spending money to keep things quite as fresh. My point stands, other than dyno & tires, there is nothing to be gained and much to be lost by changing the rules if starting mostly with already built SM cars. And even with a new build I have no doubt that the current suspension package is a net savings long term.

 That's fine that you feel that way, just keep banging your head against the wall. 

[Steve Scheifler]

No headbanging here, just trying to collect and analyze the available information as objectively as possible, then compare my conclusions to the largely unsupported claims on both sides. On what part do you not agree?

[Jim Drago]

That's fine that you feel that way, just keep banging your head against the wall.

Tim or Mike...
Please enlighten us on SSM, I truly don't know..

If you woke up this morning with the goal of winning next seasons SSM championship. What would you budget for building this car, not using any left overs etc, starting from scratch.
Jim

[davew]

From what I have learned during conversations with my east coast friends;

 

SSM was built on the premise of what SM was originally thought to be. Low cost, low modification, tight competition. The SSM group has  kept to that philosophy. No rules creap. No expensive parts. No special grease. They compete with each other. Not against each other. Creative rules interpritation is frowned upon. If you built a $30k SSm you would shunned.

 

SM competes very hard against each other. The stated class philosophies may be similar. But the interpritation is totally different. In SM pushing the envelope is the norm.  If Danny has it, Jim wants it. When Jim gets it he will sell it to everyone else. And the cost escalates. Nothing wrong with that, but a totally different mindset than what I think SSM drivers have. It all goes back to the "tech shed legal" days.

 

From my understanding, there is virtually zero crossover between SM and SSM on a given weekend.

 

I have never even seen a SSM race, but the guys who race them , LOVE IT. And they do not wish to race a SM.

 

Dave

[Jamz14]

Sealed engines are not cheaper!!! There is no savings in a sealed engine program.

[Waterboy]

Tim or Mike...
Please enlighten us on SSM, I truly don't know..

If you woke up this morning with the goal of winning next seasons SSM championship. What would you budget for building this car, not using any left overs etc, starting from scratch.
Jim

If I wanted to build I am confident I could for between 10-12K pretty easily.  That would be me building it, which anyone that knows me knows I will not do   Obviously if you are paying someone to build one it would be more, but I believe it would still be half of what it costs to have someone build a competitive SM.  The posts earlier about helmets, suits, and all that stuff were frankly stupid.  You have those costs no matter what you are racing.  The conversation has been about the cost to build and to run a car in the class.

 

I can tell you with certainty the car that won the SSM championship a few years ago cost less than 10k to build.  And in the right car I believe that individual would compete in SM majors.

 

If I wanted to buy an already built SSM to compete I am also confident I could get one in the 10-12k range and be competitive. 

 

As far as consumables I would guess (guessing because I am not going to sit here and write them all down and add them up) you would be at around half the cost of the consumables in SM (brake pads,  rotors, tires, etc.)

 

Again it can be argued all day long that it's not possible blah blah blah but it is being done and has been successful for years.  The key has been a tight rule set, different to sm, and someone managing the class.  The SE tried it several years ago but in my opinion only did it half ass.  They took most of the WDC rules but not all, and it never succeeded because of that and their was no one administering the class.  The NE did the same thing but then turned around and created SM2, which is the exact same rules as SM.  That makes ZERO sense to me.

[Waterboy]

From what I have learned during conversations with my east coast friends;

 

SSM was built on the premise of what SM was originally thought to be. Low cost, low modification, tight competition. The SSM group has  kept to that philosophy. No rules creap. No expensive parts. No special grease. They compete with each other. Not against each other. Creative rules interpritation is frowned upon. If you built a $30k SSm you would shunned.

 

SM competes very hard against each other. The stated class philosophies may be similar. But the interpritation is totally different. In SM pushing the envelope is the norm.  If Danny has it, Jim wants it. When Jim gets it he will sell it to everyone else. And the cost escalates. Nothing wrong with that, but a totally different mindset than what I think SSM drivers have. It all goes back to the "tech shed legal" days.

 

From my understanding, there is virtually zero crossover between SM and SSM on a given weekend.

 

I have never even seen a SSM race, but the guys who race them , LOVE IT. And they do not wish to race a SM.

 

Dave

Some guys "crossover" but generally with different cars.  At summit the difference in lap time is 1.5-2 seconds if I remember correctly.  Every race weekend it is a toss up of which race is going to be the best, SM or SSM.  Pretty much anyone racing SM is making it a point to watch the SSM race and vice versa.