310 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

Lower cost is an argument for a different rule set, and to be fair, that was mentioned previously and did move my needle a bit pending closer examination, then I got into other debates. So I'm giving it more thought now and asking for some help in the form of feedback.

I've lost track of which spinoff classes have what rules, but those in a small geographical area are better suited to sealed engines, which IF you trust everyone involved could control costs slightly, but off the top of my head it seems like not much.

Tires can save costs, but if the class attracted heavy hitters then anyone skimping on tires would not stand a chance. If everyone runs them to the cord then sure, money is saved and people probably take turns finishing better when theirs are primo. If the tires also come with camber limits attainable with unmolested stock parts then I don't see any savings at all for someone truly driving at the limits of the car, in fact just the opposite. Been there, done that, expensive!

Keep in mind that we're talking mostly about existing SM cars. Anyone already running in full SM trim has already removed the air box and added the Fat Cat kit. I could maybe see some tiny equalizer effect with the air box, but putting it back in now isn't really saving money because even if it reduces the benefit of some engine or exhaust work it won't eliminate it, and deep pockets will always spend. It would be ridiculous to remove the NB shock hats and better bump stops let alone spend $$ to put stock junk back on. And how would changing those save money?

What else about a different rule set (especially imposed on cars that are already built) will reduce costs? How about calculating the estimated savings per weekend, or per 10 hours of track time? Figure that with and without a dyno'd & sealed engine program. It's easy to say that the rules in these other classes control costs, as easy as saying the 1.6 needs help, but how about some numbers?

From my perspective, SSM and others like it have always been a "best of the rest", or to be rude "trophy for everyone", kind of class, no matter how they dress them up. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, but it seems like the greatest cost savings is simply in the fact that few if any top teams compete, so a <90% prepped car with a decent driver can win. Guess what, that's essentially what SMSE looks like with the added benefit of being much closer to a spec class than they are currently in. And no, I would not include the NA 1.8 or the slow NBs. No matter how competitive you guys think the 1.6 is overall, it is still a very different animal than the others. We've beat to death ways to give them more torque and achieved nothing. The leadership gets all testy when we try even to discuss making the suspensions the same. Some people want to race in a spec class, or at least a closer approximation of it than we have today. And some people want to race in a field of lower budget, less cut throat win at all cost (including constant rules stretching) competitors. Would it be less of an accomplishment to win in such a class? From my perspective sure, unless the best drivers show up. But that's true at every race in every class now.

What keeps the top 25 or so SM drivers from jumping into the new Global MX cup? Surely that promises to be extremely close racing, big fields and very prestigious to win or even finish well. Or why aren't you in the formula Mazdas or somewhere in the ladder program? Cost, time investment, not quite up to it as a driver, too old to start that path, too much commitment in general? Whatever the reasons why you stay in SM year after year rather than trying to move into at least the semi-pro ranks, maybe they aren't so different from some of the reasons Walter and others can't or won't commit enough to put an old 1.6 up front, but would enjoy a separate more laid back class with like minded racers. Try some perspective. Just a thought.

Funny thing is, I'm not actually in favor of SMSE or a class like it in my region, but i can't help challenging the opposition to better make their case.

[Waterboy]

You can't be a decent driver in ssm and win, you better be good. Same drivers that win in ssm would win, and do in sm. cars average cost is probably 10k and it doesn't make sense to spend more.

I'm glad I am in wdc. 1.6 is competitive in sm because the drivers are and the prep is. But we also have ssm for those that don't want to break the bank. It is FAR from a trophy for everyone like sm-se.

[Steve Scheifler]

OK, I'll just ask, which SSM regulars have placed top 3 in well attended SM Majors?

Is WDC essentially 1 track (I recall that one of the spinoffs runs at just one track). Is it practical to do exactly the same thing in a place like the SE region? Is the cost containment highly defendant on dyno & seal?

[Waterboy]

Dyno, seals, plugs, wires, tires, the list goes on. Wdc typically races at summit, vir, njmp, and the last couple years pocono before that Charlotte for a couple years. So yes I think it's possible in se.

As far as ssm regulars placing top in sm majors none that I know of, remember they race ssm not sm. And with the competition level they really have no reason to go to a majors.

[Scooby]

I want build a 1.6 car and race in SM just so I have no chance of getting my car disassembled in post race tech

 

I'd hate to podium in SMSE and get the head removed, kinda hard to drive it back home after that

[David L]

As for quality of drivers in SSM for comparison in MARRS 9 Kevin Kopp finished 1st on Sat and 7th on Sun. Kevin has podiumed in both MX-5 and F2000.

Brian Price finished 4th and 2nd He has won many championships including Pirelli WC. The talent is there

 

Danny finished mid pack in a rental.  at an earlier event

[Waterboy]

This year the top 3(I believe) ssm's racing at njmp finished in front of all but 1 of the NE's "highly" successful sm2 class. Sm2 is sm and should have a minimum of 10-15 hp in the ssm's. They finished right behind the other sm2.

[Jim Drago]

OK, I'll just ask, which SSM regulars have placed top 3 in well attended SM Majors?

Is WDC essentially 1 track (I recall that one of the spinoffs runs at just one track). Is it practical to do exactly the same thing in a place like the SE region? Is the cost containment highly defendant on dyno & seal?

Steyn,Lamb,Collins,Jacobs,O'rourke and other competitive SM drivers have raced in SSM there and can attest the competition.

[Steve Scheifler]

Fair enough, but answer this: If you and several other top teams decided to move into that class with an all-out effort, how many of the current front running SSM cars would still be serious contenders if run exactly as they are now? Just as good, or would they need to improve every detail and spend more on tires, prep etc? I don't know, but I'm interested in hearing what people who are closer to it think.

[Jim Drago]

Fair enough, but answer this: If you and several other top teams decided to move into that class with an all-out effort, how many of the current front running SSM cars would still be serious contenders if run exactly as they are now? Just as good, or would they need to improve every detail and spend more on tires, prep etc? I don't know, but I'm interested in hearing what people who are closer to it think.

I have heard the competition is already pretty good, people building engines with very flat curves etc. While I have no doubt if all the best teams in SM decided to compete there instead, it would make winning harder, I dont think the competition there is that far off from all that I have heard. But that is really a question for those who have competed there and not me.

[David L]

Fair enough, but answer this: If you and several other top teams decided to move into that class with an all-out effort, how many of the current front running SSM cars would still be serious contenders if run exactly as they are now? Just as good, or would they need to improve every detail and spend more on tires, prep etc? I don't know, but I'm interested in hearing what people who are closer to it think.

All of them! the. Dc region has done a wonderful job of making a rule set that is not dependent on the size of your wallet.   I think Meat is selling his top flight ssm cars for 10k?

[Highwayracer]

My impression is that SSM appeals to a different type competitor (one like me).  I can afford to spend a boatload of money on racing but I don't want to.  I can't justify it to myself.  So I want a spec class that promotes close competition and controls cost.  I've owned Formula Vees, IT-7s and now an SSM.  All classes designed to control costs.  I also have an ITS car if I want something to pour money into.  The appeal to me of SSM is that the allowed modifications are tightly controlled, limiting the advantage of spending money.  Unless you want a nice paint job, you're not going to gain a lot by throwing money at the car. 

 

The results of WDC region show this to be true.

 

By the way, I AM the target participant for SSM.  I am not now nor have I ever been a competitor in SM.  I bought an old SM that was last on track in 2006 and we renovated it specifically to comply with and compete in SSM.  I'm not diluting the SM field.  I have friends and acquaintances that would do the same thing if they could find a good deal on a car.  I also have a friend who started building an SSM from scratch AND STOPPED when SM-SE was announced.  He wasn't racing in SM either.  I'm trying to get him to start back working on it but the uncertainty is keeping him on the sidelines.

[Jim Drago]

All of them! the. Dc region has done a wonderful job of making a rule set that is not dependent on the size of your wallet.   I think Meat is selling his top flight ssm cars for 10k?

It is impossible to build any top flight sm/ssm or miata in general for 10k even if you are given a donor and count your labor at zero. You may be able to buy a used one for that or less, but not building one start to finish.

[Ron Alan]

My impression is that SSM appeals to a different type competitor (one like me).  I can afford to spend a boatload of money on racing but I don't want to.  I can't justify it to myself.  So I want a spec class that promotes close competition and controls cost.  I've owned Formula Vees, IT-7s and now an SSM.  All classes designed to control costs.  I also have an ITS car if I want something to pour money into.  The appeal to me of SSM is that the allowed modifications are tightly controlled, limiting the advantage of spending money.  Unless you want a nice paint job, you're not going to gain a lot by throwing money at the car. 

 

The results of WDC region show this to be true.

 

By the way, I AM the target participant for SSM.  I am not now nor have I ever been a competitor in SM.  I bought an old SM that was last on track in 2006 and we renovated it specifically to comply with and compete in SSM.  I'm not diluting the SM field.  I have friends and acquaintances that would do the same thing if they could find a good deal on a car.  I also have a friend who started building an SSM from scratch AND STOPPED when SM-SE was announced.  He wasn't racing in SM either.  I'm trying to get him to start back working on it but the uncertainty is keeping him on the sidelines.

SSM is a regional class only in a few places(Northeast being one). SMSE is Florida where there is no SSM correct? If someone was close enough to build then run SSM why would the SMSE announcement have anything to do with stopping a build? Sorry...please correct me if i'm not understanding...

[David L]

That is not true at all

 

It is impossible to build any top flight sm/ssm or miata in general for 10k even if you are given a donor and count your labor at zero. You may be able to buy a used one for that or less, but not building one start to finish.

Hot true at all Jim a SSM can easily be built for under 10K including donor. If you don't think it can be done you have lost touch with the philosophy of SM and the reality of how simple and cheap these cars are to build in one's garage (hundreds have done it).and then to maintain with nothing more than basic automotive skills.

 

The sad truth is SM has been exploited by businessmen that have worked tirelessly to expand the rule set to further their own interests all the while leaving the average joe racer behind, 

[Steve Scheifler]

It is impossible to build any top flight sm/ssm or miata in general for 10k even if you are given a donor and count your labor at zero. You may be able to buy a used one for that or less, but not building one start to finish.

This is my concern. We keep hearing about tightly controlled rules etc., but I have heard no details and reasonable estimates of the cost difference. Or from the other end, can someone list some of the out of control costs in SM that do not apply to SSM? It isn't as though there are large changes in the rules each year. There have been a few cases where rules were "clarified", leaving many people with "pro" heads to rework or replace them, but the performance differences were very small and the budget racer was not affected. On a per season basis, please explain, in detail, why SSM is cheaper. Surely if everyone is so certain that it is, it must be quantifiable.

[Jim Drago]

This is my concern. We keep hearing about tightly controlled rules etc., but I have heard no details and reasonable estimates of the cost difference. Or from the other end, can someone list some of the out of control costs in SM that do not apply to SSM? It isn't as though there are large changes in the rules each year. There have been a few cases where rules were "clarified", leaving many people with "pro" heads to rework or replace them, but the performance differences were very small and the budget racer was not affected. On a per season basis, please explain, in detail, why SSM is cheaper. Surely if everyone is so certain that it is, it must be quantifiable.

If "I" were racing in this class... I would save on stock intake, no fat cats...
Can't think of much else off the top of my head? others would know better than me. 'I' would certainly still go all the way through car, build new engine, rebuild trans,dif axles calipers and all the normal stuff?

[Jim Drago]

That is not true at all
 
Hot true at all Jim a SSM can easily be built for under 10K including donor. If you don't think it can be done you have lost touch with the philosophy of SM and the reality of how simple and cheap these cars are to build in one's garage (hundreds have done it).and then to maintain with nothing more than basic automotive skills.
 
The sad truth is SM has been exploited by businessmen that have worked tirelessly to expand the rule set to further their own interests all the while leaving the average joe racer behind,

Please post up a spreadsheet for those of us who are misinformed and lost touch with the class philosophy please.

[Highwayracer]

SSM is a regional class only in a few places(Northeast being one). SMSE is Florida where there is no SSM correct? If someone was close enough to build then run SSM why would the SMSE announcement have anything to do with stopping a build? Sorry...please correct me if i'm not understanding...

SMSE is not Florida only.  Its been adopted as a SEDIV class, and will award a divisional championship for 2016.  It is NOT regional only.

[Highwayracer]

Cost to build is one thing, cost to race is another.  Not having to buy a new set of tires every weekend is a huge money saver, and if you're honest you know you have to buy new HoHos if you want to be on the pointy end.  SSM uses RA1s vs SM7.