310 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

I believe that the term "regional only" was meant to indicate simply that it is not a "majors" class.

[David L]

Car   1000

cage 2500

Susp 1500

safety 1500

tires 2000

 

Just because you would replace everything does not mean that you HAVE to. 

 

My car cost 750.00 Besides the SPEC/Safety parts I ran with the same motor/trans/diff for 4 years, running up front. Only spent money last year to rebuild after getting destroyed at VIR  Then it cost 5K to rebuild including motor. 

 

I only bought 2 sets of new tires for 4 years of racing, try to imagine that in SM

[David L]

Maybe Meathead can chime in with how many he thinks are home built vs. shop built.

[David L]

This is my concern. We keep hearing about tightly controlled rules etc., but I have heard no details and reasonable estimates of the cost difference. Or from the other end, can someone list some of the out of control costs in SM that do not apply to SSM? It isn't as though there are large changes in the rules each year. There have been a few cases where rules were "clarified", leaving many people with "pro" heads to rework or replace them, but the performance differences were very small and the budget racer was not affected. On a per season basis, please explain, in detail, why SSM is cheaper. Surely if everyone is so certain that it is, it must be quantifiable.

I am not understanding how you think rules creep in the cylinder head has not effected the budget racer. 

 

Someone poster earlier I believe HIGH CHAIR, and he said it perfectly the cars are getting faster every year the rules are changing every year to include the previous years cheats.  New head every year! Who does this benefit, surely not the weekend racer hell just because you CAN afford to buy a 60k spec miata why the hell would you WANT to.    

 

NO dyno time

No monster tire budget

No magical this that or the other.

No matter how super your grease we all have to put it down on the dyno and when properly administered it works well.

 

Mike what type of rules infractions did you guys see last season? 

[Jim Drago]

Car   1000
cage 2500
Susp 1500
safety 1500
tires 2000
 
Just because you would replace everything does not mean that you HAVE to. 
SM

Off the top of my head..
hard top on cheap 850
brake pads 300
clutch 300
rear diff comp $1000
spec exhaust $300?
transponder 450

That is assuming you dont touch anything that is just common sense and run 150k plus drivetrain, ball joints, bushings, hubs,wheel bearings and calipers etc. I'm sure if I spent 5 min looking we could bring that cheap no labor build to 13-15 k very fast with no "luxury items included at all.

[38bfast]

Jim I am completely convinced that racers calculators all malfunction and spread sheet skills are limited. 

[Pat Ross]

Jim,

 

Add fire suppression system, halo seat, fire suit, HANS device, etc.  Any new racer would need all these things, including some sort of trailer to haul the race car to and from the track (unless they drove the Miata to the track).  I don't think you can get all that for the $1500 safety budget.

 

Pat

[Pat Ross]

Oops, forgot $400-$500 helmet.

[Highwayracer]

Jim I am completely convinced that racers calculators all malfunction and spread sheet skills are limited. 

If they're married they do.

[Highwayracer]

The cost of the car is going to vary.  Some people are going to build from scratch, some are going to buy an existing car.  The real difference in the classes is operating costs.  So, if you're regularly running in the top five in SM or SSM, how much are you spending, on average, per race weekend?  Don't include entry fees, as they vary from region to region.  Just the cost of running the car.

[David L]

60$ fuel 

 

Jim I believe my budget had 1500 left over. A comp diff is not necessary to win nor is an expensive clutch (our car makes 100hp)

 

  You guys are funny how does a 10k car budget now include trailers rv's and a hans device. Maybe we should try to squeeze season long training from Lamb  into a 10k car budget that can and will get you a competitive SSM car.

 

But hey if you want a 60k car my wife can build you one.

[Jim Drago]

Jim,
 
Add fire suppression system, halo seat, fire suit, HANS device, etc.  Any new racer would need all these things, including some sort of trailer to haul the race car to and from the track (unless they drove the Miata to the track).  I don't think you can get all that for the $1500 safety budget.
 
Pat

trying to do a bare bones budget build, car only.. parts only.. I agree that safety wont be covered in 1500, but I am using his numbers

[MPR22]

That is not true at all

 

Hot true at all Jim a SSM can easily be built for under 10K including donor. If you don't think it can be done you have lost touch with the philosophy of SM and the reality of how simple and cheap these cars are to build in one's garage (hundreds have done it).and then to maintain with nothing more than basic automotive skills.

 

The sad truth is SM has been exploited by businessmen that have worked tirelessly to expand the rule set to further their own interests all the while leaving the average joe racer behind, 

Time to break out the hammer and put the mole back in the hole.  

You are like most politicians, if you spread enough mis-information the public will soon buy in.  Anyone that has built a car from scratch in the last 5 years knows that it can't be done for 10K.  You haven't built one in who knows how long but Jim builds them monthly.  Having built 4 SM's in the lat 5 years I am very familiar with the costs.  Even if you put the cheapest seats and belts and so on into the car you can barely get by with $7,500 in parts alone.  All the little stuff adds, up.  Are you going to race it with all the old hoses and belts?  Didn't think so.  Are you going to trust those ball joints with your life? I didn't think so.  

 

So you are too chicken shit to tell Drago outright that you think he exploited the class while he was on the SMAC, instead you say the businessmen did it.  Make no mistake Drago is a businessman and part of his income is selling things to SM community.  Instead of exploitation I see it as a service.  When I wrecked my car at VIR he went out of his way to make sure I had parts available as my buddy Chris Haldeman drove my car through Memphis back to Texas on Sunday.  He even found a frame shop guy that could put my car on the wrack on Sunday.  Without his SERVICE I probably would have missed the run-offs trying to scrounge up parts and a frame shop that didn't have a 2 week wait. 

 

As to your never ending quoting of the class philosophy as how things have gotten out of hand.   The guys who started the class were looking to find a place for their SSB miatas to race each other since they were already doing it on regular basis in SSB.  They didn't like the existing suspension package so they made some mods to the SSB rules, OH THE HORROR, and added cost by doing so but in return created the most popular class in road racing.  Oh and these same guys happen to be the ones who built most of the first SM's (made a profit doing it also).   

 

On to your last bit of mis-information, the speed of the cars did not go up last year.  HP numbers were down compared to years past because the rules were modified and/or clarified to remove some of the grey area that lead to some haves and have nots.  Yes the rules were changed in the past to allow modifications to the cars, specifically the 99's  who were allowed the FP and timing modifications to level playing ground with those that cheated the computers but could not be caught.  Those same cars were then given a smaller plate.  The overbore rule came into being, theoretically helped everyone, it was given added weight.  

 

You want to control costs of this class, spec 1 set of tires per weekend with 1 replacement tire for no penalty and you will see costs go down.  I spend more in tires in a year than you paid for your car that you don't own anymore.  The engines are expensive, but they will last 2 seasons unless you money shift every third lap like some people who bend shift levers.   Make no mistake to win a Major you will have to have a perfect car, perfect tires and near perfect driving.  That is the class we have evolved into.  No amount of whining about the old days or how people have cheated and therefore ruined the class because it has driven up the cost is going to change the price to play at the pointy end.  When they let the class go national it was the beginning of the end of super cheap run what you brung SM.  That was a DECADE AGO!!!  Oh and those old SSB guys were the masters of cheating up their cars because they were a national class and were going for championships.  They brought every bit of that into the class and hammered the home build guys. 

 

When Jim Drago or anyone else talks about 40-60k cars they are talking about people who want a show car/race car.  They have every little gadget, 5k data systems, radios, every guage possible, fires systems, 2k plus seats.......

 

The real topic is SMSE good for SM?  The answer is no because it is simply another class that competes for cars for SM.  It isn't even SSM which is works well regionally but has not gained traction nationally.  Not because it isn't a good idea or that it isn't run well, its a matter of competition.  Where it is successful there is strong competition, where it is not they have fields of 1-3 cars and lets face it I don't care how bad you suck you can't take pride in placing third in a three car race.  

 

For SMSE to be successful it would require SM to suffer.  The real split in the class is between National/Majors drivers and Regional drivers not the car parity.  It is those that want to race for cheap and those that want to race for championships.  Great thing about SM is you can do both in Spec fudging Miata.

[David L]

how many times have you used your fire suppression system?

[James York]

Jim I am completely convinced that racers calculators all malfunction and spread sheet skills are limited. 

 

Or denial of the facts.  I use this approach when Jim sends me an invoice and my wife asks, "What did you buy now?"..  "Oh nothing, just something that's a few bucks"

 

Pro Tip to staying married.  Never leave any receipts laying around to be found... and never ask why she needs another pair of shoes or new purse.

[Jim Drago]

60$ fuel 
 
Jim I believe my budget had 1500 left over. A comp diff is not necessary to win nor is an expensive clutch (our car makes 100hp)

The 10k is/was unrealistic.. so is running a race car with open diff and used 160k everything we listed. If you want to continue with this, I will go along. But short of you, I don't think anyone else agrees

[Bench Racer]

This is my concern. We keep hearing about tightly controlled rules etc., but I have heard no details and reasonable estimates of the cost difference. Or from the other end, can someone list some of the out of control costs in SM that do not apply to SSM?

Out of control costs, SM TIRES:

 

For conflict discussion, how about one (1) set of dry tires and one (1) set of wet tires with each set being marked for a weekend event per car number/firewall vin number. With a new rule, cheat the one set rule and take a vacation for some serious time period. Please don't comment with the typical, it can't be done.

[Danica Davison]

I like the idea of limited tires, to only buy one set of stickers a weekend.  But, I bet hooiser wont like that and jack the prices up. 

[MPR22]

how many times have you used your fire suppression system?

How many times have you used your life insurance? 

[MPR22]

Out of control costs, SM TIRES:

 

For conflict discussion, how about one (1) set of dry tires and one (1) set of wet tires with each set being marked for a weekend event per car number/firewall vin number. With a new rule, cheat the one set rule and take a vacation for some serious time period. Please don't comment with the typical, it can't be done.

Can and is done in MX-5 Cup.  Not exactly how you proposed but close enough for this argument.  They loose qual times, get fined stuff like that if I remember correctly.