310 replies to this topic

[Danica Davison]

Okay, thank you.  But wouldn't SSM still be splitting up the class, and "taking entries away from SM", just as SMSE does?   

[High Chair]

PBIR this weekend has a small field with only a few 1.6s and even those are registering in SMSE so there seems to be some interest in SMSE in the SE. Personally, I do not see it as fracturing the class like Lamb suggested; I see it as a fairer playing field for 1.6 owners. As far as the Turkey Trot goes the cars racing SMSE will not have a trophy handed to them. Most likely there will be 12+ SMSE cars which is a pretty good field. One thing I can tell you is that a 1.6 will not win  in SM come Turkey Trot weekend which is exactly why SMSE is needed. People on this forum can point to prep and driver skill as the reason that NAs are not running upfront all they want but in the end they are doing so while climbing aboard their NB's. There is a reason we all switched to NBs years ago and our cars have only gotten faster every year. Again I don't believe this is a parity problem from a rules standpoint but more from the inability for the average competitor to keep a 1.6 at the front. For the most part an NB that is good on Friday will be good on Sunday but that is not the case with NA's; there are just too many variables that you have to chase with that car. That is not as much of an issue when you are racing against other NAs.

[David L]

In the DC region Avg car counts are 35-45 SSM to 20 SM so who has fractured who?

[Dan Tiley]

Not sure which side of the fence I'm on regarding SMSE, but I did notice 3 things before & during the ARRC.

 

1. I dyno'd my first 1.6 car in over a year right before the event.  
2. The guys running it were pretty excited to get whistled for their first time ever.  
3. Kevin Beaver loaded his facebook up with photos from his SMSE win.  He was one happy dude.

 

I don't see any harm in giving this a shot while the SMAC continues on trying to give the 1.6L more love.   I know I personally won't be building a 1.6L until I know I can whoop some NB butt with it.  When that happens, I'll choose to run SM (not SMSE).

[Steve Scheifler]

Okay, thank you.  But wouldn't SSM still be splitting up the class, and "taking entries away from SM", just as SMSE does?   

 

Yes, as would any other 1.6 or NA class whether the rules are the same as SM or different.

 

This whole thing strikes me as more philosophical than anything else.  I could happily argue any side of this, which makes it all the more perplexing that those against are so vehement.  The “big fish in a little pond” argument is obvious but would be just as true regardless of the rules. And any such spinoff is strictly regional (or whatever they call it now) right?  With some exceptions at favorite tracks and events, finishing well at a regional event is already playing in a little pond, right? So why would this be any different?

 

And I still haven’t seen an actual argument against “fracturing” the class, just declarations that it is inherently bad without any real explanation.  Not very convincing. Even if not a single additional car is entered in total (and there surely will be at least some), why would anyone care that they are running different letters on the side of their cars?  How can you make it clear, repeatedly, that there are few if any 1.6 car/driver combinations worthy of competing at the “Majors level” and then make a huge deal out of them wanting to start their own sub-class? Why would you even miss them other than fewer cars in the way as you lap them?  Is it that important to crush a few more cars each race?  

 

Seriously, I have no interest in SMSE unless it attracts some top talent in top 1.6 cars.  If it does, then I would prefer to run against those top drivers/teams in a 1.6 only class to better gauge my own progress.  And High Chair beat me to it on one argument for such a class, even someone trying to get their 1.6 to the front is inherently at a disadvantage.  It is said time and time and time again that the 1.6 is more expensive to get to the front and much harder to keep there.  Constant tuning and tweaking, more finicky suspension (which some of the same people opposed to SMSE refuse to so much as discuss), etc.  We’ve all heard it hundreds of times.  Forget for a moment all the hopelessly underfunded, under talented or unwilling to commit, the guys who want to “take back the class” can certainly make their argument on these grounds alone.

 

And yes, if it gets wildly popular and a few start crushing the rest there will be some of the same people saying that the deep pockets have taken their class away, again.  And then you will have a chance to say “I told you so”, but there will also be another great class and more cars/drivers participating, and someone else will say “I told you so”.  Like I said, I can argue all sides of this, what’s odd is that some people can’t.

[Johnny D]

I can see more downside over time in SMSE, over SSM and it's starting to show already.

Have's and have not will start to tune, dyno, pro built and the ranks will widen. SM been there done that, right ?

With SSM (I guess in some parts) there's a HP cap. With that there's no real need to dyno or if your AFM is sealed then how?

Sure, it's not SM, it's not supposed to be, it's cheaper. For some that's good. Kind of like the IROC series in spec though.
For some there's not challenge or advantage to be gain with basically more time and money to spend, so there's SM if you don't like it.

J~

[Todd Lamb]

The SMSE cars use SM rules and nothing stops the costs from escalating. That's where SSM comes in - different ruleset to keep costs down, and a different level of racing budget.

 

We keep hearing all along that SMSE will bring cars out of mothballs that weren't racing because it was too expensive (racing?) and the cars weren't competitive (they are), yet all the ARRC entries were SM regulars. So SMSE is taking entries away from SM. We call that fracturing the class.

 

With all due respect to Kevin Beaver, who I consider a friend, he was 7 seconds off SM times in his SM. That's not a prep, HP, or parity issue.

I don't know Jake Bailey who won SMSE, but he was 3 seconds off SM times. Also not a HP or parity issue.

 

So I ask - why does this necessitate a different class, with the same rules, to take entries away from SM?

[LarryKing]

Todd, please explain it so a dope like me can understand. Why is it bad to take entries away from SM?

 

The sum total of car of cars entering the event stays the same, so the region is happy. 

 

Is the only value of entries that are seconds off the pace (includes me) is that they keep the class numbers up? What do these entries get in return?

[Todd Lamb]

It is bad to take entries away from SM because one of the major draws to the class is the large fields. If SM ends up like the rest of SCCA (except SRF), we will have SM99, SMVVT, SM1.6, SSM, SMSE, SMpurplecars, etc. with a lot of classes with only 2-3 entries. What's the fun in that?

 

Yes in theory the sum total of the cars stays the same until the racers get tired of small classes and go somewhere else.

 

Entries that are seconds off the pace are still part of the class. That always has been and always will be a part of racing. What do we all get in return? To be a part of huge fields, a great class, our own run group, and have someone to race with IN CLASS.

 

The numbers are what makes SM what it is, along with close competition throughout the field.

[LarryKing]

You forgot SMNC

 

Yep, all Miata groups rock, that likely won't change, there will just be a mix of Miata classes within that group.

 

Racers also get tired of running around in the pack with no hope of moving forward, and go somewhere else.

 

Don't worry, now that the playing field has been leveled with the turn signal removal I'm sure there will be tons of new 1.6 builds to boost entries.

[James York]

You forgot SMNC

 

Yep, all Miata groups rock, that likely won't change, there will just be a mix of Miata classes within that group.

 

Racers also get tired of running around in the pack with no hope of moving forward, and go somewhere else.

 

Don't worry, now that the playing field has been leveled with the turn signal removal I'm sure there will be tons of new 1.6 builds to boost entries.

Do you want a participant trophy?  I will buy you one if that is what you are after.  

 

You do realize that today there is probably more 99 drivers with no realistic shot at winning a majors race also and the 1.6 crowd doesn't own that sob story?

[LarryKing]

No James, If all I wanted was trophies I would have quit 10 years ago. What I don't think you and a lot of other people are grasping is that my personal situation is irrelevant.

 

Here's what I want - for you to park your '99 for a year or two and race a 1.6, and then report back to us whether you felt like you at least had a chance.

[Todd Lamb]

You forgot SMNC

Yep, all Miata groups rock, that likely won't change, there will just be a mix of Miata classes within that group.

Racers also get tired of running around in the pack with no hope of moving forward, and go somewhere else.

Don't worry, now that the playing field has been leveled with the turn signal removal I'm sure there will be tons of new 1.6 builds to boost entries.

Hope is not a strategy. Hope gets you nothing. Hard work and determination will help someone get faster. You want to get handed something? Here's your participation trophy. 🏆

Drago where's that broken record award for the sob story of parity?

[Todd Lamb]

No James, If all I wanted was trophies I would have quit 10 years ago. What I don't think you and a lot of other people are grasping is that my personal situation is irrelevant.

Here's what I want - for you to park your '99 for a year or two and race a 1.6, and then report back to us whether you felt like you at least had a chance.

Get your head out of the sand. It was already proven twice this year: Barber and Roebling Road. 1.6 ran up front against top prep cars. Passed 99's. Passed VVT's. Uphill.

[Tom OPM]

The 1.6 owners as do most SM drivers feel the 1.6 needs some help. Not much but something. They are not far off but they are off. The SMAC has offered some heat tape and a marker light falling out. Not what they were looking for. Is SMSE the answer, No. But it looks like it may bring a few more out and the ones running it are happy so I am okay with it. I was hoping the 1.6 would get some help but until then mine is in the back of the shop again.

[Ron Alan]

Hope is not a strategy. Hope gets you nothing. Hard work and determination will help someone get faster. You want to get handed something? Here's your participation trophy.

Drago where's that broken record award for the sob story of parity?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong...there was concern, there was testing, there was recommendations...and likely there will be help given to the 1.6 soon...enough, to much? Time will tell. Sob story? Broken record? You may think these comments will shut people up...but you are sadly mistaken IMO. Because some yell louder than others does not mean their debate is not legitimate. Ad Hominem arguments on either side go no where. 

[wheel]

Anybody who uses Ad Hominem in a post should get the word "too" correct.  ;-)

[cam]

Hope is not a strategy. Hope gets you nothing. Hard work and determination will help someone get faster. You want to get handed something? Here's your participation trophy.

Drago where's that broken record award for the sob story of parity?

Hope is what motivates one to build the strategy, do the hard work, and fosters the determination to get faster/better.  Do not think anyone is requesting a participation trophy.

[Johnny D]

No disrespect Todd, great job your doing, etc., you show a lot of passion and take this personal. IMO

 

If you were coaching on this wouldn't your strategy be, to focus on making SM the best it can be as opposed to lost focus on shooting down other people's/regions idea's ??

 

Time will tell, it's the group of people SMSE is catering to IMO, weather it will work or not or need a tweak or 2 or fail. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Make SM more attractive and they'll switch, IMO.

J~

[James York]

No James, If all I wanted was trophies I would have quit 10 years ago. What I don't think you and a lot of other people are grasping is that my personal situation is irrelevant.

 

Here's what I want - for you to park your '99 for a year or two and race a 1.6, and then report back to us whether you felt like you at least had a chance.

Why would I go through the trouble of buying (building) another SM when it's practically the same?  That's just money down the toilet.

 

Give me one prepped up and I will race it.

 

And you didn't acknowledge the fact that a HUGE number of 99 drivers have, in your words, "no hope" to podium.  What do we do about them?  Give them some performance enhancement?  (and not Viagra).  Not everyone driving a 99 will win or even have a chance.  The later model cars don't magically make people drive like Lewis Hamilton or have budgets of Ferrari (nor the work ethic of either)