177 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

thanks for the ride Jim. Always great to see the race from different cars

[Tom Scheifler]

Really nice drive Tom - very smooth. No hint of overdriving.

 

Based on what you experienced, what are your feelings regarding parity, at least at this one track?

 

Thanks Danny.  That means a lot coming from such an accomplished driver.

 

Regarding parity, I continue to be encouraged.  Last year at Gateway, Steve and I really struggled to maintain pace with Max's 99 during the second half of the races.  Obviously there are many possible factors and it's likely that multiple factors were contributing.  But all last year it seemed our 1.6s were probably having heat-soak issues later in the races.  This year (with the allowed changes) I've not seen/felt any sign of the heat-soak issue.  But we've been below 70 deg ambient so far this year.  I'm very interested to see if it still seems good through August.

 

Jim and Max ran qualifying laps 6 tenths faster on Saturday morning than my fastest lap from Fri, Sat, Sun (morning).  Frankly, I was not feeling good about my chances for the Sunday race.  I even said to Jim that I might just have to accept that I'm not very good at my home track (still might be true).  Fortunately, we seemed to get the setup pretty close to right for the Sunday race and I was having trouble only at T3 turn in (possibly just mental since I went off there on Friday).  Specifically, I felt I was out braking the 99s between T1 and T2 (as you would expect).  And I was taking a tighter/faster line through T5. Even though the 99s could get the initial jump out of T7, I had the power to (mostly) hang close enough around the high-bank and front straight to get some/all of the benefit from the draft.  But I never had the power to just motor by.

 

No surprise ... Jim's a better driver than I am.  I had a really good drive (for me) Sunday and he obviously had some issues.  I'm guessing if Jim had sticker tires and/or the optimal setup Sunday, he would have won with a lot less effort.  But hey, that's racing.  At Blackhawk and Gateway, the parity seems spot on.  Bottom line, I feel like the changes for the 1.6 were appropriate and have not gone too far but I'll have a more informed opinion after the summer races. 

[Jim Drago]

Thanks Danny.  That means a lot coming from such an accomplished driver.

 

Regarding parity, I continue to be encouraged.  Last year at Gateway, Steve and I really struggled to maintain pace with Max's 99 during the second half of the races.  Obviously there are many possible factors and it's likely that multiple factors were contributing.  But all last year it seemed our 1.6s were probably having heat-soak issues later in the races.  This year (with the allowed changes) I've not seen/felt any sign of the heat-soak issue.  But we've been below 70 deg ambient so far this year.  I'm very interested to see if it still seems good through August.

 

Jim and Max ran qualifying laps 6 tenths faster on Saturday morning than my fastest lap from Fri, Sat, Sun (morning).  Frankly, I was not feeling good about my chances for the Sunday race.  I even said to Jim that I might just have to accept that I'm not very good at my home track (still might be true).  Fortunately, we seemed to get the setup pretty close to right for the Sunday race and I was having trouble only at T3 turn in (possibly just mental since I went off there on Friday).  Specifically, I felt I was out braking the 99s between T1 and T2 (as you would expect).  And I was taking a tighter/faster line through T5. Even though the 99s could get the initial jump out of T7, I had the power to (mostly) hang close enough around the high-bank and front straight to get some/all of the benefit from the draft.  But I never had the power to just motor by.

 

No surprise ... Jim's a better driver than I am.  I had a really good drive (for me) Sunday and he obviously had some issues.  I'm guessing if Jim had sticker tires and/or the optimal setup Sunday, he would have won with a lot less effort.  But hey, that's racing.  At Blackhawk and Gateway, the parity seems spot on.  Bottom line, I feel like the changes for the 1.6 were appropriate and have not gone too far but I'll have a more informed opinion after the summer races. 

 

 

I emailed my data to Steve,  he/you can use it any way you like, send it to whomever you like if it helps with anything, that's great.. If any on SMAC want it they can have it as well. 

 

Few notes, you have data so you can compare.. tighter faster line through 5.. My "opinion" but have not checked data in a long time on it.. It is faster from point A to point B, but if you run a segment time from entrance of 5 to entrance of 7, I think it may hurt or at least even out as the tighter faster line through 5 seems to hinder exit speed entering the short shoot into 7. All from memory and not checked on data in years.

 

Set up on my car very good, extra weight and second session tires were the only issue. Tires IMO are worth .3 per session at Gateway. Being pressured, there was no saving tires either.

 

Jim  

[Tom Scheifler]

Thanks for the data Jim! We'll compare to mine as soon as possible. Especially T5 - T7. And since you authorized for yours, I'll make mine/both available to anyone too.

[Tom Scheifler]

Analysis of Jim's and my laps 12-30 since we were not clear of other cars until then.

 

Track map and Velocity/Distance Graph attached below.

 

Interpretations? Observations? Questions?

 

Here is a link to the combined data file if anyone wants to do their own analysis.

Just ask that you share your thoughts back here if you do.

http://traqmate.s3.a...06342711296.tqs

 

Jim Video https://youtu.be/RkacCEHdcos

Tom Video https://youtu.be/o_Xa70w1S5w 

Attached Files

•  JimvTomLaps12-30.png   157.17KB   0 downloads
•  trackmap.png   73.7KB   0 downloads

[Ron Alan]

I can guess but who is blue, who is red?

[Steve Scheifler]

You might guess wrong, Tom is red.

[Ron Alan]

Nope...I would expect Jim to be the most consistent lap after lap which is blue...you dont get to where Jim is with out this! 

 

Granted...i did not watch video so if Tom is in line and Jim is out front that affects things. Is it possible to just put up the best laps of each?

[Tom Scheifler]

Is it possible to just put up the best laps of each?

 

Each of our best laps were before lap12 so here are best lap in the lap 12-30 group (0.003 diff) and best lap overall (0.011 diff).

Attached Files

•  JimL17vTomL29.png   50.41KB   0 downloads
•  JimL4vTomL10.png   50.84KB   0 downloads

[Caveman-kwebb99]

What i see from my amatuer eyes on data, is that the 1.6 on best lap vs best lap, even on turn 1 where the 1.6 over slows the corner it accelerated at a faster rate out of the corner, as well as i see the same thing coming onto to oval, I see this on both of those slides...

 

so while it has lower tq, does it really?  or does it now possess a tq/lb advantage?

 

I have no idea as to whether Jim can get +2/2 on your car, he has never lied to me so I tend to believe him...  What would those traces look like if the car did have +2/2? 

[Steve Scheifler]

Even under nearly ideal conditions of light traffic and a comparatively simple track it's hard to find a single lap that is representative of car potential or driver performance, but these are ressonably good. I do notice that the second one is where Jim appears to have been nearly flat through T3. He was consistently a bit faster than us through there but that one lap was a standout compared to all others. As Tom knows, every time we do setup for Gateway I talk about ways to improve there because it's a great place to make up time. But it's also a place where a lot of cars have met the wall do you want the car stable. We generally end up faster than most but giving something up to the fastest few, and I keep rationalizing that if we are going to be slower somewhere that's not the worst place to pick.

[38bfast]

Using all the runs overlayed. The red car on average can out turn, out brake and out run the blue car. The blue car is way more consistent than the red car especially in the technical areas. Just based on the graphs and not taking into count draft traffic and such the red car has more capability that the driver isn't extracting. If I was presented this and and ask what car I wanted to race based only on this data sample I would pick the red car.

[Steve Scheifler]

Very hard to judge from just the data. Video helps but you really need to look at every detail and even then it's difficult because they are so similar. And that's exactly as it should be!

But using these, you need to look at the slope and shape and I wish both had throttle position. Take the first brake-turn of the first image. At a glance the red line is steeper than the blue. But consider, the blue line slows more, starts a very steep acceleration climb, then flattens out a bit and climbs more slowly. The red line is steep and almost dead straight. Watch the video of that lap and you will probably see much busier hands in one of them and maybe some feathering of the throttle. The reverse is visible in the last half of sector 3, although the red ends up at a higher speed by braking later. Sector 5 into 6 the blue line is steeper, better acceleration but again the red ends up a higher max by braking later. The long acceleration zone of the oval and straight are distorted by the draft where a trailing car always gets the advantage even from a pretty good distance back. There is also more than one way to drive the oval and it makes quite a difference when slicing things this fine. Point being, there isn't much here that can be derived about that section without a lot of careful analysis of minutia, other than the fact that they are closer than mixed classes dare dream of.

As for over-braking, you should see that the roles are reversed in the second image. And as you know, it's sometimes better to slow a bit more to get the wheels straighten sooner at exit and stop scrubbing off speed, so taken alone the slowest point may not tell the whole story.

[Erik Hardy]

 

Very hard to judge from just the data. Video helps but you really need to look at every detail and even then it's difficult because they are so similar. And that's exactly as it should be!

But using these, you need to look at the slope and shape and I wish both had throttle position. Take the first brake-turn of the first image. At a glance the red line is steeper than the blue. But consider, the blue line slows more, starts a very steep acceleration climb, then flattens out a bit and climbs more slowly. The red line is steep and almost dead straight. Watch the video of that lap and you will probably see much busier hands in one of them and maybe done feathering of the throttle. The reverse is visible in the last half of sector 3, although the red ends up at a higher speed by braking later. Sector 5 into 6 the blue line is steeper, better acceleration but again the red ends up a higher max be braking later. The long acceleration zone of the oval and straight are distorted by the draft where a trailing car always gets the advantage even from a pretty good distance back. There is also more than one way to drive the oval and it makes quite a difference when slicing things this fine. Point being, there isn't much here that can be derived about that section without a lot of careful analysis of minutia, other than the fact that they are closer than mixed classes dare dream of.

As for over-braking, you should see that the roles are reversed in the second image. And as you know, it's sometimes better to slow a bit more to get the wheels straighten sooner at exit and stop scrubbing off speed, so taken alone the slowest point may not tell the whole story.

 

[Steve Scheifler]

Using all the runs overlayed. The red car on average can out turn, out brake and out run the blue car. The blue car is way more consistant than the red car especially in the teqnical areas. Just based on the graphs and not taking into count draft traffic and such the red car has more capability that the driver is extracting. If I was pesented this and and ask what car I wanted to race based only on this data sample I would pick the red car.

Not unreasonable, but as noted in my prior post, the "out run" part is deceptive, most obviously by the draft and less obviously by other factors not shown such as throttle position through and exiting corners, and the effect of the line that is taken. In terms of cornering, tires are/were more important than the cars in this case IMO and I think Jim has said the same.
Unfortunately I am finding that the TM analysis software is either badly lacking or I am misinterpreting it because trying to dig into some of the details like distance traveled through a given segment make no sense compared to the video evidence. I know there is a well documented bug so I need to learn more about that and determine if it is responsible for what I'm seeing.

[Steve Scheifler]

OK, funny enough, but if you had been around years ago you might already understand that we try very hard to lay things out as we see them with minimum spin. In this case I think a broad overview of the data is showing what many expect, INCLUDING US. As the video and simple lap times show, Jim was more consistent even though he struggled to control tires that were not as fresh as Tom's. No surprise, Jim has been racing every year and many more events per year. But beyond that you really need to dig into all the details to understand why any one segment looks better than another. Anyone jumping to easy conclusions from these few images probably hasn't considered all that is involved.

[Jim Drago]

OK, funny enough, but if you had been around years ago you might already understand that we try very hard to lay things out as we see them with minimum spin. In this case I think a broad overview of the data is showing what many expect, INCLUDING US. As the video and simple lap times show, Jim was more consistent even though he struggled to control tires that were not as fresh as Tom's. No surprise, Jim has been racing every year and many more events per year. But beyond that you really need to dig into all the details to understand why any one segment looks better than another. Anyone jumping to easy conclusions from these few images probably hasn't considered all that is involved.

 

What I think he is saying.. (And What I believe in general, not specific to this data).. Whether you have even the slightest bias( realized or not) or preconceived notion... You can picks bits and pieces of the data to prove conclusively your exact point... or unfortunately some one else can also pick other bits and pieces to prove the complete opposite

[Steve Scheifler]

While that is true, it's not what I took from his post. But then I'm not always on the same wavelength as others. To me it suggests that the race results had people making assumptions that we don't *entirely* agree with, the video supports them and the data and my analysis of it adds another nail to the coffin.
Is that about right Erik?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

While it is just my opinion:

 

I have watched Jim's vid and Toms Vid, I looked at the data...

 

If you asked me which car I would pick to drive after watching the video alone I would pick Tom's car 10 out of 10 times at that track, I would probably pick Tom's car 7 out of 10 times for other tracks if I had to pick.  

 

After looking at data, I think my prior statement seems warranted.  although I would probably pick Tom's car 8 out of 10 for other tracks after the data.  

 

And full disclosure I am currently not building a 1.6, but I can assure you I am seriously considering it.

[Steve Scheifler]

A word about brakes. I'm confident that the 1.6 has an advantage on brakes in terms of max Gs and potentially fade, thanks to lower weight, but I do not think that is a big factor at Gateway. A friend drove my NB with us at a test day a few years back and although we consistently lapped faster, he killed us in the brake zones, always later and pulling more Gs for a shorter time. What I see in this data is Jim trying to maintain a lead and Tom avoiding big mistakes in the corners that would cost him 2nd while trying to make up for some of that under braking, often resulting in over-slowing.