280 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

Today I had a long lunch with a guy just now trying to make the transition from track days to W2W. He isn’t a Miata guy and hasn’t seen this discussion but has become active in the local club to try and effect change where he perceives problems. It was an interesting discussion, not surprisingly covering many of the issues mentioned here, and we had different takes on some of those. But the two biggest issues for him were the relative lack of people willing and able to even point him to someone with whom he could discuss options for getting into the W2W side, and the sticker shock and commitment level compared to doing track days. Fortunately at one of the events he met a local racer with the time and patience to answer a lot of questions and eventually rent him a car cheap in exchange for working on it. After one race weekend that way he’s still committed to continuing in W2W but is already very aware of the lack of meaningful competition in most classes, the higher cost and lower seat time relative to track days, and the distances he’ll need to travel if he’s going to do more than a couple races per year with decent fields. Around here at least it is a very bleak picture and so a very hard sell. It really takes someone like him, just plain determined to give it a try, because there’s not enough lipstick to disguise the facts after getting someone’s attention through social media and flashy videos. I really think that very high priority should be placed on having the right people available and responsive to people like him when they make even the most casual inquiry, and every volunteer at events should know exactly where to direct them. (And I don’t mean a website or printed propaganda.)

[LarryKing]

Maybe an SCCA volunteer mentor program for club racing - for every region

[-P-]

Prices are going up but for comparison the price of a ford F150 ten years ago was about half of what it is today. 

 

But today my F150 massages my butt, steers for me, and cruise control adapts to traffic speeds. It even has this cool trailer backup assist I've never setup.

[OrangeCrush86]

Today I had a long lunch with a guy just now trying to make the transition from track days to W2W. He isn’t a Miata guy and hasn’t seen this discussion but has become active in the local club to try and effect change where he perceives problems. It was an interesting discussion, not surprisingly covering many of the issues mentioned here, and we had different takes on some of those. But the two biggest issues for him were the relative lack of people willing and able to even point him to someone with whom he could discuss options for getting into the W2W side, and the sticker shock and commitment level compared to doing track days. Fortunately at one of the events he met a local racer with the time and patience to answer a lot of questions and eventually rent him a car cheap in exchange for working on it. After one race weekend that way he’s still committed to continuing in W2W but is already very aware of the lack of meaningful competition in most classes, the higher cost and lower seat time relative to track days, and the distances he’ll need to travel if he’s going to do more than a couple races per year with decent fields. Around here at least it is a very bleak picture and so a very hard sell. It really takes someone like him, just plain determined to give it a try, because there’s not enough lipstick to disguise the facts after getting someone’s attention through social media and flashy videos. I really think that very high priority should be placed on having the right people available and responsive to people like him when they make even the most casual inquiry, and every volunteer at events should know exactly where to direct them. (And I don’t mean a website or printed propaganda.)

 

This is just my opinion. There are probably many drivers that would be willing to mentor a new driver, but unfortunately most drivers are not at all involved with their region operations. They just pay for the comp license, pay the entry fee, and race. In a volunteer organization people need to be involved proactively to accomplish things like mentorship. Without this it will only be by pure chance that a new person finds support.

[Steve Scheifler]

This is just my opinion. There are probably many drivers that would be willing to mentor a new driver, but unfortunately most drivers are not at all involved with their region operations. They just pay for the comp license, pay the entry fee, and race. In a volunteer organization people need to be involved proactively to accomplish things like mentorship. Without this it will only be by pure chance that a new person finds support.

Agree completely, with the caveat that there are multiple ways to contribute. I have rarely gotten involved directly in local club politics, event planning or running. There’s only so much time and not everyone is well suited to every task. Most members involved in those areas don’t even know me. But I’ve long been one of the informal contributors helping newbies, supplying knowledge, labor, parts and complete cars to others, at the track and in my shop. So what I need to do is bridge that gap with the people running the local club, and help recruit others like me to do the same. But here again, not all people are equally suited to all tasks. Almost anyone willing to help is better than no one when a person is trying to get started, but maybe just barely. Some care in recruiting would be a plus.

[Alberto]

<snip> 

But the two biggest issues for him were the relative lack of people willing and able to even point him to someone with whom he could discuss options for getting into the W2W side,

 

I really think that very high priority should be placed on having the right people available and responsive to people like him when they make even the most casual inquiry, and every volunteer at events should know exactly where to direct them. (And I don’t mean a website or printed propaganda.)

 

I can confirm what a pita it was for me to get info when getting started as others mentioned earlier in this thread.   

Referring people to the GCR to get answers to questions is like telling someone to read the encyclopedia...

 

This is just my opinion. There are probably many drivers that would be willing to mentor a new driver, but unfortunately most drivers are not at all involved with their region operations. They just pay for the comp license, pay the entry fee, and race. In a volunteer organization people need to be involved proactively to accomplish things like mentorship. Without this it will only be by pure chance that a new person finds support.

 

The regions I've had experience with don't have any formal or informal mechanism to connect drivers looking for mentors.  I've mentioned that to board members in the past but nothing has happened - yet.  SFR did refer people to Racing Drivers Club when I started but it was an analog experience in a digital world so to speak...

 

As a driver, I don't even know how to get involved or help.  Most of the calls for help are for volunteers to flag or other work which seems difficult for a driver to do during a race weekend when he's on track or prepping to be on track.  Myself and others can help in administrative matters but again, if you aren't on the board, there really is no way for a member / driver to help other than providing occasional feedback either in person or via social media.

[Steve Scheifler]

...

I could go on but you get the idea....... I have a huge power point about all this if anyone wants to see it... Its about 45 pages long....

I had the opportunity to read the presentation. Very interesting. I’ve got numerous questions but I’ll withhold them. Of course it wasn’t meant to lay out every detail of how to move the club side of the SCCA into current times and survive, but it does give a sense of the direction and focus Mike was proposing. In broad strokes he has repeated some of that here; more member focused offerings and better promoting the different ways that people can be involved; experienced members mentoring and being role models; more responsiveness to what people want and leveraging data and technology to do that; more involvement with SEMA, manufacturers and other segments of the auto industry. If none of that sounds particularly surprising, perhaps that’s part of the point. If a club is too mired in who they have always been and how they have always done things then they need help with everything. That’s not to say there hasn’t been an effort to make changes, there have been many attempts, but perhaps not as well conceived and executed as they could be. On the other hand, almost nothing pleases everyone. During my lunch the other day with the guy making a move from track days (formerly PDX here) he talked about the need to make events more interesting and entertaining. We talked a little bit about what that might look like and didn’t really hit on anything specific. (It ain’t easy) No more than a couple minutes later he complained that the next race here would be clockwise, which has not been done before. So here’s the club trying to do something new and interesting and a person who wants new and interesting is reluctant even to attend (but will). It’s like buying a person the perfect gift then seeing them wrinkle their nose at it. It really isn’t easy.

Sorry for the detour. Mike also had some surprises in the presentation, one that was mentioned here about marketing HST as semi-pro and running it from the pro side, as well as a kind of vintage semi-pro. I’m not sure about the latter but it all depends on how the entire picture comes together. Other surprises were a suggestion to pursue a possible purchase of or merger with USAC and moving operations to their location in Indy, and keeping an eye out for good opportunities to purchase more race tracks. All intriguing ideas and each an opportunity for interesting debate. I hope that current management is open to a broad range of possibilities and gets good input on what to pursue because there is a growing sense amongst people I know that club/sprint racing as we know it is under serious threat and unlikely to recover, or even survive.

[granracing]

"Maybe an SCCA volunteer mentor program for club racing - for every region"

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I ran a mentor program and it was very popular to a point where I couldn't manage it myself anymore.  It was a national mentor program for Club Racing and Solo, didn't matter if the person was interested in SCCA or NASA.  Overall I don't see individual regions being able to successfully manage their own mentor programs, at least where there is a large overlap in where they host events.  In the North East for example, half the time I don't even know which region is hosting the event nor do I care. 

 

One of the challenges I faced was getting people connected.  Often times emails sent went into a spam box and even when asking people to look there, it was missed.  Due to the volume of interest it received, there would need to be some way to automate pairing people and generating notifications.  I considered some type of dating software but the expense and time made that prohibitive to implement myself.

 

I do think this is a great opportunity for SCCA national.  Or if they don't do it, it's certainly a larger group of drivers who are ready to step up could work together to manage. 

 

"As a driver, I don't even know how to get involved or help."

 

This is absolutely something SCCA needs to tap into.  We have a wide range of people with many different types of talents who certainly could be used to help in a variety of ways.  But at the same time as drivers, we need to take some accountability for figuring out how we might be able to help as well.  There are a lot of tasks completed prior to an event to make them happen which could be done when ones schedule permits. 

[OrangeCrush86]

"As a driver, I don't even know how to get involved or help."

 

I only know how my region works. We have a monthly board meeting, which I'm trying to rename as club meeting because even that name "board meeting" made members avoid it. I just go the meetings and after a few times it was easy to identify the struggles and where I could help. Plus being at these meetings allowed me to ask questions and understand the network of people that are making the events and the club work. Having this knowledge is the key to helping new people navigate our club.

 

It's unfortunate how much effort it takes to have a comprehensive view of the clubs inner workings, but this is the way things are for now and I don't see a concerted effort to simplify the organization.

[Peter Olivola]

"As a driver, I don't even know how to get involved or help."

 

I only know how my region works. We have a monthly board meeting, which I'm trying to rename as club meeting because even that name "board meeting" made members avoid it. I just go the meetings and after a few times it was easy to identify the struggles and where I could help. Plus being at these meetings allowed me to ask questions and understand the network of people that are making the events and the club work. Having this knowledge is the key to helping new people navigate our club.

 

It's unfortunate how much effort it takes to have a comprehensive view of the clubs inner workings, but this is the way things are for now and I don't see a concerted effort to simplify the organization.

 

I earn a living analyzing situations and looking for ways to simplify things so this is a serious question:  Do you have enough exposure to how events are organized to see anything that can be changed to simplify things?  

[Alberto]

I earn a living analyzing situations and looking for ways to simplify things so this is a serious question:  Do you have enough exposure to how events are organized to see anything that can be changed to simplify things?  

 

Answering for myself and the few dozen people I interact with at races, NO.

[OrangeCrush86]

I earn a living analyzing situations and looking for ways to simplify things so this is a serious question:  Do you have enough exposure to how events are organized to see anything that can be changed to simplify things?  

 

The single events themselves are rather streamlined. It's the over arching organization that is confusing. The obvious items are related to double work. For example, our region runs a volunteer incentive program and so does national. Nothing is standardized and volunteers have to register points twice. There is region merchandise and national merchandise. Every region runs it's own website and national runs it's own website. The division has to review applications for comp licenses and then they get sent to national to get reviewed and processed again. Plus our structure is too tall. We have SCCA Chapters > SCCA Regions > SCCA Divisions > SCCA Conferences (Majors) > SCCA National / SCCA Pro. 

 

SCCA has 65,000 members, and what feels like 10,000 mini-clubs inside of it. Just like a driver above said, half the time he doesn't even know what region is putting on the race.

[Nathan Pring]

The single events themselves are rather streamlined. It's the over arching organization that is confusing. The obvious items are related to double work. For example, our region runs a volunteer incentive program and so does national. Nothing is standardized and volunteers have to register points twice. There is region merchandise and national merchandise. Every region runs it's own website and national runs it's own website. The division has to review applications for comp licenses and then they get sent to national to get reviewed and processed again. Plus our structure is too tall. We have SCCA Chapters > SCCA Regions > SCCA Divisions > SCCA Conferences (Majors) > SCCA National / SCCA Pro. 

 

SCCA has 65,000 members, and what feels like 10,000 mini-clubs inside of it. Just like a driver above said, half the time he doesn't even know what region is putting on the race.

 

 

 

It took me a while to figure out there's SCCA - SEDIV - SARRS - NCR and what I would be racing under / what events to enter.  When you're trying to figure out what category you want to run it, it definitely is confusing to figure out the structure and why it exists like that.  I'm still not quite sure why other than it probably just evolved like that over the years and everyone who's already in it knows how it works so no need to change.

[OrangeCrush86]

It took me a while to figure out there's SCCA - SEDIV - SARRS - NCR and what I would be racing under / what events to enter.  When you're trying to figure out what category you want to run it, it definitely is confusing to figure out the structure and why it exists like that.  I'm still not quite sure why other than it probably just evolved like that over the years and everyone who's already in it knows how it works so no need to change.

 

Exactly. I even forgot about things like SARRS and some other ones.

[Nathan Pring]

Exactly. I even forgot about things like SARRS and some other ones.

 

This just one event... to someone who has no idea what those acronyms are, it's confusing... 

 

11-12

SARRC/MARRS Challenge/Double SARRC/Double MARRS/Single ECR/Double TCPS/Double APC/V8RRS/Prod Fest VIR/NCAR

[LarryKing]

It's all here, all you have to do is read. http://sedivracing.com/

[Peter Olivola]

The single events themselves are rather streamlined. It's the over arching organization that is confusing. The obvious items are related to double work. For example, our region runs a volunteer incentive program and so does national. Nothing is standardized and volunteers have to register points twice. There is region merchandise and national merchandise. Every region runs it's own website and national runs it's own website. The division has to review applications for comp licenses and then they get sent to national to get reviewed and processed again. Plus our structure is too tall. We have SCCA Chapters > SCCA Regions > SCCA Divisions > SCCA Conferences (Majors) > SCCA National / SCCA Pro. 

 

SCCA has 65,000 members, and what feels like 10,000 mini-clubs inside of it. Just like a driver above said, half the time he doesn't even know what region is putting on the race.

 

The division review of worker licenses is a matter of practicality.  It's at the local level where performance is known.  Topeka only knows participation.  The Executive Steward and Divisional Specialty Administrator approve license grade.  Topeka doesn't further review except as it pertains to worker incentive, i.e., renewal discount.

 

When you enter an event, how do you find it?  IIRC, all CenDiv racing regions use MSR.  The dashboard works by searching by track.  At that point does it matter which region is running the event?

 

There is one individual with overarching responsibility for a division's racing program, the Executive Steward.  Have you ever contacted yours?  I'm sure he can get you connected to someone if he can't answer your question himself.

[OrangeCrush86]

The division review of worker licenses is a matter of practicality.  It's at the local level where performance is known.  Topeka only knows participation.  The Executive Steward and Divisional Specialty Administrator approve license grade.  Topeka doesn't further review except as it pertains to worker incentive, i.e., renewal discount.

 

When you enter an event, how do you find it?  IIRC, all CenDiv racing regions use MSR.  The dashboard works by searching by track.  At that point does it matter which region is running the event?

 

There is one individual with overarching responsibility for a division's racing program, the Executive Steward.  Have you ever contacted yours?  I'm sure he can get you connected to someone if he can't answer your question himself.

 

 

I was speaking about comp licenses, not worker licenses which I know nothing about.

 

Go on MSR and search something logical like CenDiv and see what comes up. It does matter who is running the event because it determines who the staff are that we need to interact with. When I make my racing schedule I have to visit my division website, then I have to check all the region websites to make sure there is no extra info. While I'm at it I need to also check the race track websites in case a Friday practice is available that isn't under the SCCA. If I want to do a Majors race I have to jump back to MSR and register for the major series and wait 4 weeks to get my majors card. Now if I want to travel outside of my area and race in a neighboring division I have to do the entire process again.

 

Here is a prime example: https://www.scca.com...ub-2,clubracing Imagine you are a new person wanting to road race in Minnesota. You go to the SCCA website map and see there are no road races. We have three sanctioned club races every year in MN and who knows how to get an event on this map. This is the kind if thing that seems minor to insiders but can have a big impact to outsiders.

 

I have not contacted the Executive Steward. After 3 years I'm still trying to find out what the stewards below him are responsible for...

[Peter Olivola]

I was speaking about comp licenses, not worker licenses which I know nothing about.

 

Go on MSR and search search something logical like CenDiv. It does matter who is running the event because it determines who the staff are that we need to interact with. When I make my racing schedule I have to visit my division website, then I have to check all the region websites to make sure there is no extra info. While I'm at it I need to also check the race track websites in case a Friday practice is available that isn't under the SCCA. If I want to do a Majors race I have to jump back to MSR and register for the major series and wait 4 weeks to get my majors card. Now if I want to travel outside of my area and race in a neighboring division I have to do the entire process again.

 

Here is a prime example: https://www.scca.com...ub-2,clubracing Imagine you are a new person wanting to road race in Minnesota. You go to the SCCA website map and see there are no road races. We have 3 sanctioned club races every year in MN! This is the kind if thing that seems minor to insiders but can have a big impact to outsiders.

 

I have not contacted the Executive Steward. After 3 years I'm still trying to find out what the stewards below him are responsible for...

 

I think you've misread the GCR on driver licensing.  Your license renewal is handled by Topeka exclusively unless you're involved in a driver review.  They happen but are rare.

 

Individual events have supplemental regulations.  They should contain most of the information you're jumping around to find.  They are also available via link within MSR for the event.

 

As for stewards, here's my drivers school presentation explaining stewards:

 

There are two kinds of stewards, operational and Stewards of the Meet. 

 

The former, starting with the Race Director (for majors)/Chief Steward (for regionals/driver schools) have overall responsibility for the conduct of the event.  Various Assistant Chief Stewards (and possibly a Clerk of the Course) are delegated to specific operational functions.  The Clerk of the Course and Assistant Chief Steward (ACS) Operating run the show in race control, making decisions on starting sessions, full course yellows, dispatching emergency vehicles, etc.  There is an ACS Safety who is responsible for inspecting the course every morning and following an impact to insure the track is safe.  Safety Stewards also handle insurance paperwork.  There could be an ACS Tech to handle the paperwork at tech.  There could be an ACS Steward of the Course (SOC)/Black Flag Steward assigned to initial incident investigation.  At small events there could be just a couple of stewards.  At the June Sprints, all of the above will be working and there will be multiples for each assignment due to the size of the event.  All report to the Race Director/Chief Steward.

 

The Stewards of the Meet have two functions.  They are creatures of the Topeka office and act as official observers of the event and are responsible for producing an observers report.  They are also the first court in the event of a protest or Request for Action.  There is a Chairman, SOM who is completely independent of the Race Director/Chief Steward and can, if necessary, replace the Race Director/Chief Steward.  Yes, it's happened, but rarely and usually for emergency/health reasons.  The SOM have no involvement in event operations beyond the above responsibilities.  If you've encountered a steward who directs you elsewhere it's probably because they were an SOM and can't be involved in event operations.

 

I would urge you to contact your Executive Steward if you have further questions about what stewards do and for any other questions about race organization.

[OrangeCrush86]

I think you've misread the GCR on driver licensing.  Your license renewal is handled by Topeka exclusively unless you're involved in a driver review.  They happen but are rare.

 

Individual events have supplemental regulations.  They should contain most of the information you're jumping around to find.  They are also available via link within MSR for the event.

 

 

I haven't misread it. I'm talking about someone with a NASA license that applies for the SCCA Full Comp License waiver. Anyways it was just a minor example of something that needs to get streamlined to encourage adding drivers to our events.

 

As for the Supps I'm well aware of them, but supps are often not available until months after the schedule is created.

 

At any rate you are obviously a good source for a new person to be in contact with as you have a detailed knowledge of the inner workings of the club. Asking this of every driver (mentor) isn't a good approach.