207 replies to this topic

[Randy Thieme]

The issue should not be drafting per se but rather contact during drafting. Yes, there are drivers who team together to draft during qualifying or racing. That might be seen as an unfair advantage but not really. Most drivers will either let you draft them or will draft you as long as there is no contact. They do not have to be a buddy or teammate you showed up at the track with. Bumper contact while drafting does reduce drag slightly more, so drivers who bump draft might have a slight advantage over those who draft with bumpers a foot apart. But that's not to say you can't draft someone with bumpers a foot apart.

Bump drafting should be like that other contact sport - between consenting adults it's fine and fun but unwanted advances should result in a slap.

[MPR22]

While I am not against... I would point out that all the cars are equipped with a brake pedal and brakes as well, it really isn't and either or scenario
Jim

I didn't say it was an either or scenario. In fact I pointed out there are unlimited scenarios that play out during a race.

However, if you think we are going to fall into line like good little ducks we should race wings and things.

Was the race at TMS more conducive to un-tntentional contact on Saturday or Sunday based on your personal experience.

[Jamz14]

James,

True that the GCRs don't allow it. And you are right that it should not be happening under those rules. However, the CCRs and NASA do allow it ( at least per Rob, who I trust knows this section of the CCRs ). So I am talking about it under those rules.

Regardless, how rules get changed are by conversations like this one,and then if enough people want to see a change, it is changed. Right? At least that is how I am told I am supposed to get some consideration for my under developed 97.

[Rob Burgoon]

James, True that the GCRs don't allow it. And you are right that it should not be happening under those rules. However, the CCRs and NASA do allow it ( at least per Rob, who I trust knows this section of the CCRs ). So I am talking about it under those rules. Regardless, how rules get changed are by conversations like this one,and then if enough people want to see a change, it is changed. Right? At least that is how I am told I am supposed to get some consideration for my under developed 97.

If you want a rule change, you have to submit a request to the CRB (anything on this topic will be almost certainly rejected).

I don't think there will be any considerations for anyone's car for a few years.

Put it this way, your 97 isn't off the pace from other cars drafting at Willow Springs. I put it on the pole going solo weekend before last.

[Jamz14]

Maybe yours isn't off the pace, But ours is!!! Could be the rookie behind the wheel though!!

[Jamz14]

Rob, your profile says your are running a 91 not a 97.

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob, your profile says your are running a 91 not a 97.

A common misconception. I can skate through tech underweight and without a restrictor with that car number.

[Jamz14]

Lol . Good strategy. I like it

[Jim Drago]

If you want a rule change, you have to submit a request to the CRB (anything on this topic will be almost certainly rejected).

I don't think there will be any considerations for anyone's car for a few years.

Rob gets a gold star, He has been paying attention

[granracing]

It's also weird how when one gets closer to a lead car, they lift and still stay in the draft without a bump. The safer justification is BS. Not drafting? Errrr.

Competition wise, I can see both sides of this.

Maybe start requiring video to be run? With the low cost these days of a GoPro or whatever, maybe it's not a bad thing for this and many other situations. I know it's saved me of a butt kicking more than once.

[Jim Drago]

It's also weird how when one gets closer to a lead car, they lift and still stay in the draft without a bump. The safer justification is BS. Not drafting? Errrr.

Competition wise, I can see both sides of this.

Maybe start requiring video to be run? With the low cost these days of a GoPro or whatever, maybe it's not a bad thing for this and many other situations. I know it's saved me of a butt kicking more than once.

For some reason every time anytime they have self incriminating video or a friend has incriminating video.. You get "my camera didn't work"

[Tom Sager]

If you want a rule change, you have to submit a request to the CRB (anything on this topic will be almost certainly rejected).

I think the rule is perfect as it is. By the letter bump drafting is not legal but if you want to engage in that there is no penalty so everyone should be happy. We have a lot of rules that work that way.

[Cnj]

This has been a fun thread (thanks MPR), but ultimately peeing in a strong wind regardless of which view you take. If you race NASA I dont see them changing their rules to ban bump drafting. If you race SCCA don't hold your breath waiting for bump drafting to be allowed. Write letters if you want to. Asking for some convoluted ruling of "its OK to bump draft during a race but not during qualli" should make for fun fastrack reading.

Its also been fun watching MPR trying to get his track names right. TWS/TMS, 220/221, whatever.

cnj

[Rob Burgoon]

Maybe start requiring video to be run? With the low cost these days of a GoPro or whatever, maybe it's not a bad thing for this and many other situations. I know it's saved me of a butt kicking more than once.

You can't prove I'm pushing without a camera that can see the gap from a perpendicular viewpoint.

[Keith Novak]

and doing testing to find the fastfood packet that can handle 2000 ppp (pound per packet)

Now that the bottom has fallen out of the tweaked rev limiter and hogged out header market, I'm taking advance orders on blueprinted ketchup packets. Very discrete. All the best drivers are using them. Just don't cut it open with a sawzall and put it on your burger. That stuff will kill you.

[Todd Green]

Just because you can't bump you shouldn't make the decision to make a low percentage pass!!!!!! You should have control over yourself and your car and make proper decisions regardless.

Good luck with that. I suppose your solution for teen pregnancies is abstinence? Great in theory, not so great in practice.

Give me a break, you know when you are drafting and when you are not.

Sounds like great verbiage for a rule. Should be easy to enforce.

And thank gawd I don't have to role play sales calls. I'd sooner tape myself to the bumper as a bump draft indicator (If I scream, then it was a hit and not a bump) then have to "role play" at work.

[Jamz14]

No Todd, my solution for teen pregnancy is not abstinence. But I also thought you might have more self control than a pubescent girl infatuated with the pimple face future SM driver next door.

For the record again, I stated that I have zero problem with bump drafting in a race. A situation where you might find it normal to be 6 deep in a corner or thinking about whether you should attempt a pass or not. I said that it wasn't proper in qualifying. A situation where you shouldn't be finding yourself normally 6 deep in a corner, or attempting low percentage passing, whether drafting or not. 6 deep in a corner isn't fast no matter what you did with whom on the straight. Taking off lines to make low percentage passes isn't fast either. The point of qualifying is to be the fastest (individually). The point of a race is to be the first across the line. BIG DIFFERENCE.

And what is it that you do that I should aspire to Todd? What job is it that you have that allows you to do only the things that are dignified and that you agree with all the time? I asked if you have ever had to do something as an example of how people can tear apart ideas for the sake of tearing apart ideas and that it is very easy to do. There was a chance that you have actually been in sales and have had to do crappy corporate BS things and might understand the point. Instead, you failed to understand, and attacked the analogy instead of the point. BTW, though I am not a fan of sales role playing, (primarily because of people behaving poorly and failing to understand the point of it), role playing sales isn't different than drivers using visualization as a tool to develop muscle memory of a track. Ever seen that? Drivers with their eyes closed....concentrating......driving an imaginary race......their hands going through the steering motions........trying to get better at their craft?

I do the things I have to do to earn a living for my family and to be able to afford to put my kid in a car so that he can do what he loves. And I do it at the sacrifice of me being able to get behind the wheel and do what I would love to also do, but can't because money spent for me doing it, is money taken away from him doing it. So the next time you want to slam the things I am made to do for my career, just know that I would scrub toilets, wear a dress to work, even polish your shoes Todd , just for the chance to watch my son drive. And so much more for both of us to be able to drive like you get to do. It is not possible to insult my pride of what I do for a job. You should be thankful that you don't have to role play sales for your job. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I am not ashamed of anything I have done to helped us get our program to the point where it is now. Even if that means doing things that please my boss.

And my offer stands, I will polish your boots outside the timing house at the next race if you let me take your car out and drive any session during the race. You pay the entry, and you will have the shiniest boots in the paddock.

[Rob Burgoon]

The trouble is that many of us are a little jaded with how resistant SCCA can be to change of any sort. James, if you want to try some TT style qualifying, NASA is the place to start asking. You only gotta convince a race group rather than some guys that represent the interests of an entire club nationwide that desperately don't want to screw anything up. I've wanted to do 1 lap qualifying with the PA stock car style before but it's tough to sell the group on it.

[Jamz14]

Hey Rob,

I agree with what you are saying. Though, I had no expectation of changing anything with either organization. I was replying to a post that solicited our opinions on bump drafting. Mine is simple; anything you guys want to do in the race, no BDing during qualifying.

SCCA accommodates that position, and NASA's perspective hasn't been an issue for us. We have more positions to make up on the start grid by improving our individual pace than we do worrying about whether or not we have a drafting partner at this time. Trying to close down that 1-2 seconds we need to get up with you guys consumes any extra time I would have trying to affect change in organizations that I haven't belong to long enough to form jaded opinions of.

Drivers that don't think before putting themselves and us in risky situations is something that we have much experience with though. SM is downright gentlemanly compared to what these crazy kids do in karts without the safety equipment.....like belts and a cage. Them not using their heads before they put their ride in a risky situation I chalked up to them being young and kids. What is our excuse........that we weren't allowed to BD?

I think people believe that I don't support BD.Not at all!!!! I just don't buy into the idea that if it isn't allowed, that my driver should be excused for poor decisions.

[MPR22]

I think people believe that I don't support BD.Not at all!!!! I just don't buy into the idea that if it isn't allowed, that my driver should be excused for poor decisions.

When has anybody suggested if bump drafting isn't allowed then poor decisions should be excused?