207 replies to this topic

[plane]

So lets see if I, as a nube, understand. Some like it, some don't, but nearly everyone admits to knowingly, willfully and purposefully breaking the rules. Not pushing the limit,not exploiting a gray area, but full on premeditated felonious rule breaking. What the hell does that say about your personal integrity and self respect and how the hell to look your kids and competitors in the eye. I hope you are so forthcoming on the podium as you raise the trophy over you head and say "It's great to be here because I cheated." Seriously, what is it about auto racing that people are so proud and vocal of how they break the rules. Try to follow the F'n rules - it is not hard - Hit people in NASA, Don't in SCCA. Period. Choose where you run and live with it like an adult and role model you are to new drives and your family. You all hated the guy who cheated up his son's car. But you own cheating? - "Oh that's different." This sort of attitude is what ultimately kills racing classes and chases away new people.

[Jamz14]

Go back and look. A couple have stated and supported the notion that they may be inclined to make low percentage passes if they are not allowed to use the affects of BDing. You suggested that you might find yourself 6 deep in a corner without it and compared the notion of potentially backing out instead , as being a good little duck and that a different type of racing might be more appropriate. Dismissing Jim's good advice that it wasn't an either or situation and that you have brakes and can use them if you found yourself barreling into a corner with a bunch of other cars.

[Rob Burgoon]

So lets see if I, as a nube, understand. Some like it, some don't, but nearly everyone admits to knowingly, willfully and purposefully breaking the rules. Not pushing the limit,not exploiting a gray area, but full on premeditated felonious rule breaking. What the hell does that say about your personal integrity and self respect and how the hell to look your kids and competitors in the eye. I hope you are so forthcoming on the podium as you raise the trophy over you head and say "It's great to be here because I cheated." Seriously, what is it about auto racing that people are so proud and vocal of how they break the rules. Try to follow the F'n rules - it is not hard - Hit people in NASA, Don't in SCCA. Period. Choose where you run and live with it like an adult and role model you are to new drives and your family. You all hated the guy who cheated up his son's car. But you own cheating? - "Oh that's different." This sort of attitude is what ultimately kills racing classes and chases away new people.

With a public announcement by the region that they will ignore it, I'm good with it. If you don't like it, file paper.

[James York]

So lets see if I, as a nube, understand. Some like it, some don't, but nearly everyone admits to knowingly, willfully and purposefully breaking the rules. Not pushing the limit,not exploiting a gray area, but full on premeditated felonious rule breaking. What the hell does that say about your personal integrity and self respect and how the hell to look your kids and competitors in the eye. I hope you are so forthcoming on the podium as you raise the trophy over you head and say "It's great to be here because I cheated." Seriously, what is it about auto racing that people are so proud and vocal of how they break the rules. Try to follow the F'n rules - it is not hard - Hit people in NASA, Don't in SCCA. Period. Choose where you run and live with it like an adult and role model you are to new drives and your family. You all hated the guy who cheated up his son's car. But you own cheating? - "Oh that's different." This sort of attitude is what ultimately kills racing classes and chases away new people.

So I am guessing you have made and verified you car 100% compliant to the letter of the GCR since your personal integrity and self respect is at risk. Or are you going to use the "its not a performance enhancement" argument? Rules are rules as you so clearly point out. Pot calling kettle............

http://mazdaracers.c...ng/page__st__40

And FYI, in the SCCA the opinions expressed by the posters have been taking place since day 1 of SM (2001) and the class grew by leaps and bounds. The economy and other negative aspects of SM (cost for example) are a much bigger influence than a little bumping. I don't think this will influence the class life one iota.

[plane]

With a public announcement by the region that they will ignore it, I'm good with it. If you don't like it, file paper.

Well then that would be a rule change and so it wouldn't be cheating. This "follow the rules thing" is pretty easy.

[MPR22]

Go back and look. A couple have stated and supported the notion that they may be inclined to make low percentage passes if they are not allowed to use the affects of BDing. You suggested that you might find yourself 6 deep in a corner without it and compared the notion of potentially backing out instead , as being a good little duck and that a different type of racing might be more appropriate. Dismissing Jim's good advice that it wasn't an either or situation and that you have brakes and can use them if you found yourself barreling into a corner with a bunch of other cars.

I belive you have made some assumptions about what I wrote. I basically asked when did anyone on this thread condone or give a pass to people who make bad decisions, regardless of how or why? I did not say, nor have I read anyone else say " because we can't bump draft in SCCA we make bad decsions and that should be forgiven." I personally believe that by bump drafting you reduce the congestion at turn in, more specifically at the end of a long straight away. I did not say that it was right, I did not say it should be made legal, I did not say, nobody should do it. I just said through personal observation it appears to reduce congestion that may lead to 6 cars entering a turn at roughly the same time. I also said that imparting a vector on someone's bumper is safer than 3-6 cars trying to enter a turn simultaneously. If you read those two statements as, "SCCA should allow bump drafting because it is the safest way to race" you have made a leap into inductive reasoning. I have no proof bump drafting creates a safer racing environment, likewise I do not belive either sanctioning body has eveidence of bump drafting being safer or more dangerous than non-bump drafting races. It is an unstudied randomely occuring event in a race or qualifying.


As for dismissing Jim's good advice, I believe you mistook Jim's gamesmanship for advice. At the pointy end of the field the head games are non-stop, on the track, in the paddock, on this forum. I belive what Jim was trying to tell me goes something like this, "if you don't want to enter the corner with me and 5 others by all means, concede the corner and follow me around for the next 12 laps and be content with 7th place." I consider Jim a friend and a to some extent a mentor. He has been at the pointy end for a long time now, he has a lot he can teach. My job is filter the advice I get from all of my "friends" and become a better, safer racer.

[plane]

So I am guessing you have made and verified you car 100% compliant to the letter of the GCR since your personal integrity and self respect is at risk. Pot calling kettle............

http://mazdaracers.c...ng/page__st__40

And FYI, in the SCCA the opinions expressed by the posters have been taking place since day 1 of SM (2001) and the class grew by leaps and bounds. The economy and other negative aspects of SM (cost for example) are a much bigger influence than a little bumping.

To the best of my 6 months of racing ability and having 2 mechanics look at the car - yes. And as a new person, was reading the GCRs again last night. The group has always seemed to differentiate between honest mistakes and knowingly cheating. Trying to draft closely and tapping someone is different than knowingly and purposefully bump drafting. We all make mistakes and do things wrong. The difference is whether you are a cheater or simply human.

And the helpful link to my previous post was asking about why we had certain rules and stated my dislike for people who knowing do not comply. I was asking why so many rules I didn't understand, not if I should follow them or not. My comment was... " I know it is because it is a rule and has to be followed, but why the rule in the first place?"
I think this more like the vacuum calling the stove Avocado.


And the economy is just an excuse that is used when organizations don't like when people vote with their feet. The economy makes people choose between leisure pursuits. They drop some but not others, to the extent they drop car racing, it is because it is not as high a priority as their other options. It means that it was only a marginally fun thing and so they leave easily. I did it with sailing in large part because the local scene looked a lot like this group and I got tired of the Ground Hog Day aspect of the drama. This is new drama for me so interesting, but very deja vu. The solution is not the economy, it is to keep SM competitive AND make it fun and inviting to new and existing drivers that they give up other things first. In sailing there are huge fleets that have been around for 40 years because they have fun together and respect each other and welcome new people easily. The "hot" new fleets tend to rise and burn out when they stop serving new and casual racers and the hot guys move on to the new new thing. Most people in any racing group never win and are never going to win, they need another motivation to keep showing up so that you can enjoy beating them and they can enjoy being beaten.

[James York]

So I assume your heater core and assembly was reinstalled even though you didn't see why you needed to do so. Great.

But it doesn't matter in real life. The entire thread is a moot point anyway. Bumpdrafting is not allowed (in the SCCA), but will still happen. Experienced racers know when and how to use it and questioning anyone's integrity or otherwise won't change a thing.

[LarryKing]

Who knew bumpdrafting was such as hotbed of angst?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The economy makes people choose between leisure pursuits. NO economic reality says Fishing or swiming with the family is cheaper than $1500 race weekend


I did it with sailing in large part because the local scene looked a lot like this group and I got tired of the Ground Hog Day aspect of the drama. This is new drama for me so interesting, but very deja vue. The solution is not the economy, it is to keep SM competitive AND make it fun and inviting to new and existing drivers that they give up other things first. Most people in any racing group never win and are never going to win, they need another motivation to keep showing up so that you can enjoy beating them and they can enjoy being beaten.

Everyone gets into this racing thing for different reasons, sounds to me like you are in it for a different reason than me. I dont give a shit about bump drafting, I come out to test my metal and to win. I hate loosing, I work hard to win, its easy to loose... If you want to win you push every tollerance, every rule, every hinderance, every issue.

Bumping dont mean shit those at the middle or the back will be there regardless of bumping or not bumping... Those at the front will be there regardless. Why does everything always turn to cheating, Some will always see things as black and white, while others will see things in shades fo grey. Personal integrity is just that a personal thing. If you wake up in the morning and can look yourself in the mirror and be be proud of yourself, that is your personal integrity level.

Thia thread was about bump drafting not about cheating... Lets get back to the bump drafting now, even though it is such a BORING topic...

[plane]

So I assume your heater core and assembly was reinstalled even though you didn't see why you needed to do so. Great.

But it doesn't matter in real life. The entire thread is a moot point anyway. Bumpdrafting is not allowed (in the SCCA), but will still happen. Experienced racers know when and how to use it and questioning anyone's integrity or otherwise won't change a thing.

James - it was a blower and it was installed long before my first race, but thank you for reminding me.

[Jamz14]

MPR22,

Thank you for the clarity and I respect your opinion on it. Though if you do go back and look, it was said and it was supported that people may be tempted to make low percentage passes that they wouldn't otherwise do. And there is an implication there that they would feel justified in doing so. Hence that their poor judgment is condoned, at least by themselves.

I don't remember how you felt about my real point. That BDing should not be allowed during qualifying. That it provides unfair advantage to teams, violates the intent of qualifying, and that it present a bigger safety risk in placing otherwise slower drivers farther up the starting grid.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

MPR22,

Thank you for the clarity and I respect your opinion on it. Though if you do go back and look, it was said and it was supported that people may be tempted to make low percentage passes that they wouldn't otherwise do. And there is an implication there that they would feel justified in doing so. Hence that their poor judgment is condoned, at least by themselves.

I don't remember how you felt about my real point. That BDing should not be allowed during qualifying. That it provides unfair advantage to teams, violates the intent of qualifying, and that it present a bigger safety risk in placing otherwise slower drivers farther up the starting grid.

Those with poor judgment will always make low precentage passes regardless of rules in place.

Bump drafting doesnt give unfair advantage to slower drivers, nobody wants to push a slower dirver around, it just slows them down... Bumping in qualifying gives an advantage to fast guys who all team up to get to the front in qualifying. If your slower than me in qualifying i dont want to go out bump drafting with you, how would that help me? If your faster then me unless your my best freind in the world why would you want to sacrifice your own opportunity to bump me around. Seen this happen many times, as you get to be a better driver, others will want to work with you in qualifying. Right or wrong, that is just the way it is.

[Bench Racer]

It would be real amusing if there were enough top prepped/driven by "COOL FOLKS" 1.6's that aligned like baby ducks & blew the doors off the 99 pluses.

Then we would see how long the current plates/weight rules would stay in place.

Of course the weight of the 1.6 has been adjusted for just such an occastion.

Plane, thank you for all your posts, because now the "COOL FOLKS" have a new target.


Let's really stir the pot. What do we think of Spec Miata drivers that block for other Spec Miata drivers?

This advertisement has been approved and paid for by the profiled "Self Proclaimed Expert".

[Caveman-kwebb99]

It would be real amusing if there were enough top prepped/driven by "COOL FOLKS" 1.6's that aligned like baby ducks & blew the doors off the 99 pluses.

Then we would see how long the current plates/weight rules would stay in place.

Of course the weight of the 1.6 has been adjusted for just such an occastion.

Plane, thank you for all your posts, because now the "COOL FOLKS" have a new target.

This advertisement has been approved and paid for by the profiled "Self Proclaimed Expert".

Is there more than 1 top prepped, and driven 1.6 in the country, let alone at the same race? Is anyone targeting You? Let me know who it is and I will take care of it for you since you are having trouble fending for yourself these days LOL

[Jason J Ball]

I wouldn't beat on the new guy so much. He was just trying to point out the hypocrisy we all see. SCCA bump drafting is not legal by GCR, yet every top driver in the country does it. Especially at Road America. So how can anyone openly condone it??? I have no dog in this hunt as I don't race SCCA, yet. NASA Texas we were told if you didn't want to be bumped, put an X on your bumper. But that was back in 09'-10', not sure what is policy there now. Not even sure what NASA SE says on the subject.

Just my

Flame on!

[Tom Sager]

It would be real amusing if there were enough top prepped/driven by "COOL FOLKS" 1.6's that aligned like baby ducks & blew the doors off the 99 pluses.

Then we would see how long the current plates/weight rules would stay in place.

Of course the weight of the 1.6 has been adjusted for just such an occastion.

Plane, thank you for all your posts, because now the "COOL FOLKS" have a new target.


Let's really stir the pot. What do we think of Spec Miata drivers that block for other Spec Miata drivers?

This advertisement has been approved and paid for by the profiled "Self Proclaimed Expert".

Dave, you sound like you're playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game. It always comes back to parity and the 1.6 for you. I've wanted to build and drive a 1.6 for years but you have scared me off.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I wouldn't beat on the new guy so much. He was just trying to point out the hypocrisy we all see. SCCA bump drafting is not legal by GCR, yet every top driver in the country does it. Especially at Road America. So how can anyone openly condone it??? I have no dog in this hunt as I don't race SCCA, yet. NASA Texas we were told if you didn't want to be bumped, put an X on your bumper. But that was back in 09'-10', not sure what is policy there now. Not even sure what NASA SE says on the subject.

Just my

Flame on!

To adress your concerns:

I am not beating on the PLANE. There is hypocricy in everything if you want to look for it! even in his ideas.

Rob will take make low percentage passes probably even without bump drafting LOL.

bump drafting is not cheating in SM unless it is a rule that is being enforced, like it or not that is just the way it goes. I dont make the rules or enforce them, I just drive accordingly. I cant drive according to NASA's passing rule so I just use SCCA's passing rules everywhere, if you get beside me I give you 4 wheels on pavement. Thats just the way this Cheetah roles.

[Jason J Ball]

To adress your concerns:

I am not beating on the PLANE. There is hypocricy in everything if you want to look for it! even in his ideas.

Rob will take make low percentage passes probably even without bump drafting LOL.

bump drafting is not cheating in SM unless it is a rule that is being enforced, like it or not that is just the way it goes. I dont make the rules or enforce them, I just drive accordingly. I cant drive according to NASA's passing rule so I just use SCCA's passing rules everywhere, if you get beside me I give you 4 wheels on pavement. Thats just the way this Cheetah roles.

Well I wasn't actually singling you out, but if you want me too! Stop picking on the new guy kwebb! You give us real Cheetahs a bad name!

And while your at it, quit changing your avatar! We like the mono-kini chick! Unless you can find a better one than her, put her back up!

[FTodaro]

Bump Drafting to me is a pick up line I use in bars............. no rules there. Not Man Bars either charbs, just beating you to it.