43 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

!.6 secret?? As they get older the lack of corner grip is compensated by better straight away speed? Anyone have data that actually shows this...or not? Just a thought....

I don't think that is a secret? Nor am I sure that it is accurate? But always a guessing game between grip and straight line. I go with grip 9 out of 10 times

[DrDomm]

So what I'm hearing then is that 6-10 sessions is the max you can get out of these tires to be competetive. Since I'm new at this, I have a couple of questions. What was the life of the Toyos? I thought people claimed they were good right down to the cords. Also, if there's no more grip left, why does Hoosier put so much rubber on? Why not start with 2-3/32 of "tread"?

As a caveat, my car can probably use a little tweaking setup wise, and with more experience I probably won't suffer as much on old tires.

[Jim Drago]

Dom
The Toyos were good down to the cord was true at a few tracks, at most tracks, session 2-6 Toyos that started as 2/32 tires were the best tires. Guys running Hoosiers less than 6 sessions are guys that ran 1/32-2/32 Toyos. Short of people looking for the last few tenths, the Hoosiers can be run to 10-20 cycles IMO. Again, track dependent.
Jim

[James York]

So what I'm hearing then is that 6-10 sessions is the max you can get out of these tires to be competetive. Since I'm new at this, I have a couple of questions. What was the life of the Toyos? I thought people claimed they were good right down to the cords. Also, if there's no more grip left, why does Hoosier put so much rubber on? Why not start with 2-3/32 of "tread"?

As a caveat, my car can probably use a little tweaking setup wise, and with more experience I probably won't suffer as much on old tires.

My toyos would be done after 5 full on track sessions. Maybe six if I was nice with them. New set every race weekend.

[Ron Alan]

I don't think that is a secret? Nor am I sure that it is accurate? But always a guessing game between grip and straight line. I go with grip 9 out of 10 times

Secret like magic grease? All kidding aside, would love for someone who has lots of data and can compare Toyos to Hoosiers on the same track, same car , weather conditions close...etc,etc...to chime in and see if in fact the tires have pluses and minuses compared to each other...or not.

[DrDomm]

Short of people looking for the last few tenths, the Hoosiers can be run to 10-20 cycles IMO. Again, track dependent.

Can I assume that the tracks you can run older tires at would be the longer, less twisty tracks? Less heat built up in corners, and longer straights to cool them off...?

[FTodaro]

My toyos would be done after 5 full on track sessions. Maybe six if I was nice with them. New set every race weekend.

Secret like magic grease? All kidding aside, would love for someone who has lots of data and can compare Toyos to Hoosiers on the same track, same car , weather conditions close...etc,etc...to chime in and see if in fact the tires have pluses and minuses compared to each other...or not.

this is such a track dependent question. For example, I did an event at Putnam park its a 1.8 mile course and the texture of the track is gritty , you have to race on fresh Toyos (NASA) and you pretty much trash them in One weekend.

Just comparing The toyo to the hoosier, i think its fair to say that the Hoosier is softer compound and with all things being equal will not last as long,

Just my opinion, But if that is fact or not is hard to say.

[Keith Novak]

Can I assume that the tracks you can run older tires at would be the longer, less twisty tracks? Less heat built up in corners, and longer straights to cool them off...?

Some tracks have a really rough surface. We have one with a 180* corner of really old asphault they stage the drag racers on so the surface is as full of pits as any auto parts store parking lot from all the chemicals as they sit there leaking. It chews up tires badly. People have often talked about how old harder tires were the hot ticket there. New Hoosiers are apparently the hot ticket there now, easily beating the track record during 4 laps of just scrubbing in tires.

[LarryKing]

(In my midpack opinion) Old Toyos at Mid-Ohio is a myth. The grip there can change hourly. Just because someone says they ran their best time on two-year-old baldies doesn't mean someone else couldn't do better at that exact time and weather with fresh tires.

Bought a set of "pre-heat cycled" Hoosiers, they have 16 cycles on them now and they still feel pretty good. Would they be the hot ticket for a front runner at a national? No. Will they allow me and my meager talent/budget to have fun at a regional? Definitely!

[Danny Steyn]

All kidding aside, would love for someone who has lots of data and can compare Toyos to Hoosiers on the same track, same car , weather conditions close...etc,etc...to chime in and see if in fact the tires have pluses and minuses compared to each other...or not.

Ron

I have lots and lots of data from the 2010 and 2011 seasons comparing Toyo RA-1 and Hoosiers at the same tracks on the same days in the South East where we were able to run Toyos in the SARRC's and Nationals, and the Hoosiers in the Pro-IT. In testing I would go out in consecutive sessions with different tires to see where each one was better.

• At very tight tracks like Barber, where you are nowhere near 5th gear, its a no-brainer - the Hoosier's superior grip makes for significantly faster lap times.
• At tracks like Sebring, where grip is important, but you are also need less rolling resistance, the Hoosier is still a faster tire as you make up more in the corners than you lose in the straight.
• At tracks like Road Atlanta with two 5th gear pulls it is really close. If you can qualify at the front then Hoosiers make sense, but if you are behind, the lower rolling resistance of the Toyos will allow you to make the late braking passes in T10 and T1

You have to drive the Hoosiers differently - they require a MUCH more aggressive approach to braking, corner entry, and throttle application. If you drive them like a Toyo, then you are leaving too much on the table.

But if you drive them aggressively, once the carcass gets hot, normally around the 10 minute mark, I have had them let go suddenly, and had to drive a maintenance lap or two to get them back. At Road America where the straights are so long, they have plenty of time to cool and I have never experienced them "letting go"

Just my personal experience - YMMV

[Danny Steyn]

(In my midpack opinion) Old Toyos at Mid-Ohio is a myth. The grip there can change hourly. Just because someone says they ran their best time on two-year-old baldies doesn't mean someone else couldn't do better at that exact time and weather with fresh tires.

M&Q. My experience is absolutely .... "the older the better". Something special about that surface that grains fresh rubber really quickly. Just my opinion

[Marc Cefalo]

Dom
The Toyos were good down to the cord was true at a few tracks, at most tracks, session 2-6 Toyos that started as 2/32 tires were the best tires. Guys running Hoosiers less than 6 sessions are guys that ran 1/32-2/32 Toyos. Short of people looking for the last few tenths, the Hoosiers can be run to 10-20 cycles IMO. Again, track dependent.
Jim

Wow, something Drago and I agree on......lol

I can attest that Hoosiers can be run almost up to their 20th cycle. The key though is proper scrubbing of sticker tires. A used set i "borrowed" had 11 cycles on them before and 19 by the time I was done. They were scrubbed in properly. Some podium finishes and an outside pole with them! As soon as you start approaching the 20 th cycle though the tire is pretty much toast.

On the flip side, starting a race on stickers i would not recommend on a rough surface like NJMP. Maybe 4-5 cycles at best there.

I'm sure most would agree it's how you treat them initially that will determine the life of the tire.

[DrDomm]

Wow, something Drago and I agree on......lol

I can attest that Hoosiers can be run almost up to their 20th cycle. The key though is proper scrubbing of sticker tires. A used set i "borrowed" had 11 cycles on them before and 19 by the time I was done. They were scrubbed in properly. Some podium finishes and an outside pole with them! As soon as you start approaching the 20 th cycle though the tire is pretty much toast.

On the flip side, starting a race on stickers i would not recommend on a rough surface like NJMP. Maybe 4-5 cycles at best there.

I'm sure most would agree it's how you treat them initially that will determine the life of the tire.

Well, I'll admit that I didn't follow the Hoosier guidelines on this first set. I showed up at VIR with a set of 2-3 year old Toyo RA1's, a set of Toyo wets, and a new set of rims. With rain in the forecast, I bought a set of Hoosier SM6's and replaced my Toyo wets with Hoosier H2O's. I just qualified and raced (all very poorly) on the SM6's til the rain came. So, maybe I can't complain about the longevity of those SM6's. Plus, they mights still work ok if I don't overheat them. I'm sure some of this is lack of experience.

Back to the break-in. The Hoosier guidelines are tough to do. Is running a full qualifying session (25min), and then allowing to cool for a week considered close enough?

[Brandon]

Per Andrew's video: I'm the orange/green #48 getting by him during his off (along with Bob Varca) and the three of us have an absolute awesome 3-way battle throughout the remainder of the race (until Andrew pulls himself out). If it's of any import, I was running a "36+ hour sit" of unshaved cycled R-888s (practice day the Friday before). Varca, I will assume, was running a 'fairly fresh' set of Hoosiers (he runs with Flatout here in the NE and I would say they "spare no expense") but I could be wrong.

I'm not one to brag** but I'd have to say I was keeping up rather well with a tire that everyone likes to blame as "junk". And to compare what Varca and Andrew were running with what I was, I'd be comfortable to mark things as quite even.

Not to say there are those who are running sticker Hoosiers that are dead after 4-5 cycles whereas others who are running cycled (and sat) sets, but I'd classify it as "you get out what you put in".
Just look at what I'm supposedly able to do on "junk R-888s".

I'm adding fuel to the fire only I guess. (edit to add) Or echoing what Marc is reinforcing from Drago...

But something to take away (and this is just my opinion):
Properly cycled, RA1 (C-RA1) & R-888 (C-R-888) will last a long time (with RA1 wearing best).
-the 888s do not "require" shaving (Toyo admits they will be marginally faster with the trade-off being shorter life).
Properly cycled Hoosier (C-Hoosiers) appear to have a shorter longevity than the Toyos.
Sticker & shaved (S&S) R-888 are faster than S&S RA1.
Sticker Hoosier are faster than sticker or S&S R-888.
Sticker Hoosier have a shorter life than either S&S Toyo models.

Fastest: S-Hoosier > C-Hoosier > S&S-R-888 > C-R-888 > S&S-RA1 > C-RA1
Longevity: C-RA1 > C-R-888 > S&S-RA1 > S&S-R-888 > C-Hoosier > S-Hoosier

** I can't brag: I ran out of gas for this race. Managed to get and stay ahead of Varca (for 10th I think) but the last 2-3 laps were babied as I "burped" on the left-hander and I barely finished 11th.
P12 was coming up real fast from DFL - on a cycled set of Hoosiers!!

[DrDomm]

Brandon, I'm not sure what video or race you are referring to, and I can't speak to what Bob V. was running. However, part of what my discussion here relates to what you are saying. I rented with Flatout last year. I remember a time they sent me out to scrub in stickers, and I remember running on nearly bald RA1's. Specifically, those nearly bald RA1's felt awesome last year at the Glen in October. And that's part of my concern about the Hoosiers.

Yes, they are awesome stickers. But my first set (not properly cycled...my bad), just didn't have the same performance as the old RA1's as they aged. My experience is very limited, but I wonder if moving to Hoosier was helpful...for a "budget" class.

I'd be interested if others agree with your tire ratings.

[James York]

I'd be interested if others agree with your tire ratings.

No.

But it is not worth getting into a debate since: 1) I have my own data which I totally believe which includes of dozens of races, 100s of sessions; 2) It doesn't really matter for me since I only run National SM and the required tire is Hoosier at this time.

[DrDomm]

No.

But it is not worth getting into a debate since: 1) I have my own data which I totally believe of dozens of races, 100s of sessions; 2) It doesn't really matter for me since I only run National SM and the required tire is Hoosier at this time.

I'm glad you disagree (and that JD "likes" your comment). That gives me some hope that there's a way to make these tires last, and be effective.

It is worth debating. Isn't the Hoosier/National deal only for a few years? If it's a great tire, then we should support it. If not...

[Jim Drago]

Domm
Guys running Nationals competitively have never run the tires for 15-20 sessions. Even at tracks like Mid Ohio, we aged tires and started with 1/32, but still raced 3-6 session. With Hoosiers, you don't have to carry multiple different tires etc like we did with Toyos. There were instances with the Toyos that is you didn't have the "right " Toyo, you were SOL. I havent experienced anywhere that a sticker through 8 session Hoosier couldn't race at the front. The Hoosiers IMO, are far easier to drive, this has brought the fields closer together. At Road America, they have all but made the kink and the carousel "non events" when the car is handling well.
While I think personally, I was able to separate from the field more with Toyos and knew the tire well. There is absolutely no comparison in the two tires IMO, one is a real race tire and performs as such, one isn't.

[James York]

Domm,

I think the Hoosier is an excellent tire and have no problem with Hoosier being the required tire, even though comparatively I was better on the RA-1. (probably because I knew the tire extremely well, how hard to push it, great setup and how to drive at the limit with them)

The reason I say it is not worth debating is to: 1) Save myself the grief of being told I don't know what I am talking about when I try to give feedback of my data and 2) These forums are a subset of SM community and the tire decisions/contracts by the CRB/BOD probably won't be impacted.

I have been in SM through 2 tires test and contract selections, so I am just sharing my opinion of the process from the tiny bit of insight obtained. But feel free to discuss, its a free forum.

Take this though, tire performance, longevity is extremely dependent on: Your ability to use the tire; your performance expectation; setup; and understanding what the tires need.

[Brandon]

Judging from James' & Jim's comments, it comes back down to run what your budget, skills, & rig capacity are!
Or you have

With that in mind, and for those without the triple-axle hauler (for all the scrubbed-in tires), what would be a recommended 'Hoosier prep' process to follow for getting the most longevity or grip (choose one)?