107 replies to this topic

[FTodaro]

Well in that case, The Great Lakes Division has been Open tire for along time and no one that I know wants to change it. We also have a regional Hoosier contingency where you can win tires for a podium finish. So if you want to win tires you can run Hoosiers, if you want to use up your NASA tires you can do that and if you want to run G force or any other Dot tire you can. It does have to be a Dot racing tire, no slicks.

So from that standpoint, i am not sure why a region wants to impose tire limitations, its not a cost savings to the race in this environment of two clubs running two tires.

[LarryKing]

Brian is on the Boad out there and they are deciding for their regional program next year.

If the tire decision for 2013 were up to you, would you stay with the SM6 or go back to the RA1?

So, they spec'd Hoosiers for 2012?

[john mueller]

Mazdaracers.com, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the racers are in the top third.

HA! That's funny right there...

[Ron Alan]

I didn't vote either DD...we had no experience. Rant? Just a fan of honest debate and not really stretched phony data. You of all people can appreciate this I appreciate Brian doing the due diligence for the SFR. Only goal I have is this decision comes now...and not in Jan! But in general this poll may be good info for SCCA National!

We stayed on RA1's Rocky for 2012

Whether intentional or not, Jim actually made a point why a lot of front runners may love the change back...less competition! The Hoosier has allowed the good drivers to stay a little longer in the mirrors of the great drivers! This based on what I saw and read...not our own data.

[philstireservice]

Toyo contingencies can be had that payout throughout the field and setup so that the same few people don't win every time.

[Neil O]

After a year with the Hoos I feel this way:

1. I spent maybe 3-4x the $ to have the same amount of fun. To be competitive you should run 6 heat cycles or less. So now I have an extra set of wheels and mounted Hoos and have to go to each race weekend with at least one set of stickers. And if there is a test day, practicing on old tires is worthless so there had better be a pretty fresh set on the car to start. With Toyos I only had to make sure I had enough tires to fill the car if I corded one as the last lap was usually the best lap.

2. The Toyo's are a tougher tire to go fast on and put drivers who just put their foot down at a disadvantage. On the Hoos, a lot of turns became easy flat bringing mid-pack field closer. Was it really worth it for that?

3. We're all on the same tires so I wouldn't really care if we were running street tires. What is important is that the costs remain low enough to encourage the large fields. Hoosiers took it the other way.

Nothing would make me happier than to go back to Toyo's or have a Toyo class. And let's keep the Hoosier rains as they are far superior to the full tread Toyos. Sorry to the front running national guys, but no one ever gave me a tire. Contingencies seem to go to other places unknown.
Most racers I talked with last weekend agreed, more or less, with my feelings.
I think regional racers should petition their region to go back to the Toyo.

+1 Muda

Maybe your budget estimate is off for some? For me, I'd say an increase of 2.5-3 x's. I'd bet more $$ for most of us.

Yes you needed to shave the Toyo to 3 or 2 to be fast but, the tire was good till it corded. I think it was easier to manage older tires, practice tires and if you corded one you still had 3 that were fast.

With Hoosiers once a set is done it's done.

I actually think the Toyo's are more fun to race on. But, just my opinion...

(Summit Point loves old tires so, that has a lot to do with my opinion)

[Rob Burgoon]

I fixed my post and inserted in your quote, it was early ..
Costs are similar( not posts), someone said within $2 a tire of RR? I should have said the SM6 is far closer to a real race tire I guess I am on the track a lot, see a lot of people that I have raced closely with for years, I know what the power is on their cars etc.. I have seen them improve relative the field on Hoosiers while not increasing any performance on the car. So either their learning curves picked up on Hoosiers or my slowed down or what I am saying is accurate. The Hoosiers ABSOLUTELY let you get away with mistakes that YOU COULD NOT get away with RA1's. Hard to call something like that a fact, but in mind it is an absolute fact. SO you can laugh etc and make comments like the slicks would make mid packers front packers etc. i am just trying to give these guys information to help make a decision, which is the intent of this thread

I'll agree with that. The RR covers mistakes as well.

[john mueller]

I'll agree with that. The RR covers mistakes as well.

Yep, that's how the mid-pack gets closer to the front.

[Muda]

+1 Muda

Maybe your budget estimate is off for some? For me, I'd say an increase of 2.5-3 x's. I'd bet more $$ for most of us.

Last year with RA1's I had two sets in rotation and bought a set of 3/64 shaves every three race weekends. A race weekend was a test day and two classes.
With Hoos I had a sticker set every weekend. This last weekend I used two sticker sets. Not worth risking a 5hc set going into two 18 lap features with two poles.
All the front runners were on stickers. The Sunday stickers disappeared after 16 laps in the morning and started going south after 7 laps in the afternoon. Ambient still in the 60's.
Lot's of dough for a couple of $5 trophies.
To me, a "real" race tire is the one you have the most fun on.

[Bench Racer]

Jim, only busting your balls with what seems to be accecpted logic by some. With everyone on hard tires driving skills would take over. < Read between those lines. No question softer rubber makes many feel like god even with their errors. Hey, same logic , maybe us over 70 should be handicaped with Hoosier slicks.

Moose, it was the MidWestern Council LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG race at the Farm. All used tires, 50 laps Sat. in ITA with SM6 & 50 laps Sun. F production Hoosier slicks. We didn't see that 2 second difference in the past, except the track was green Sat.

Ron, I find is fun. Why else do we come here, other than to keep Jim's count up and show our

[Johnny D]

Yep, that's how the mid-pack gets closer to the front.

Has there been more pile ups up front with mid-packer new found speed as a result?
Just asking.
J~

[fishguyaz]

so the consensus seems to be the hoosier has effectively "dumbed down" the class to make it easier to be a fast guy.


it does feel likethe samer thing as making tests easier in school so that some of the kids dont go home feeling like they actually need to learn something and study.

honing my skills, is what i like about racing, and if its easy to be good(like everyone else is),then i want to do something else.

[Jim Drago]

Just to clarify.. you are not taking a 10th place guy to wining.. It stands to reason all will benefit some.. some will benefit more, some less. But the fastest people are still winning. Not sure on exacts.. My opinion is the top 15 will be closer (say from 1.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds, just a guess)if run on hoosiers than RA1's The order will be for the most part the same, but some minor shuffling.

As far as hard tires.. I think a hard tire that has little to no benefit session 1 to session 20 would be ideal if it weren't an absolute brick. Not sure if such a tire exists, if so, I would be all for it when the contract comes up. The Grand Am Hoosier is harder, but not sure if you would need stickers every session then) But then, none of this has anything to do with the thread.

[Johnny D]

As far as hard tires.. I think a hard tire that has little to no benefit session 1 to session 20 would be ideal if it weren't an absolute brick. Not sure if such a tire exists, if so, I would be all for it when the contract comes up. The Grand Am Hoosier is harder, but not sure if you would need stickers every session then) But then, none of this has anything to do with the thread.

[Rob Burgoon]

As far as hard tires.. I think a hard tire that has little to no benefit session 1 to session 20 would be ideal if it weren't an absolute brick. Not sure if such a tire exists, if so, I would be all for it when the contract comes up.

That's the hope for the RR. It seems pretty stable, but I just can't know for sure until everyone is on it for a few race weekends.

[Keith Andrews]

It sounds like your region has made a great choice to have both NASA and SCCA regional races on the same tire. I don't know why you would want to do anything else.

Running two different tires in our region made me choose one group over the other. There is generally more competion with the SCCA races here in the SE, so I went that way. I didn't choose because they had a tire I liked. The cost difference is negligible.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

As I have said all along.. Those claiming 15+ heat cycles on RA1's will get the same cycles on a Hoosier.. I rarely saw more than six or 8 cycles on a ra1.. I started 60% of my tires at 2/32, 20% 3/32 and 20% 1/32...

One advantage of the RA1 since it doesn't heat cycle out is that you can race the tire for 3-5 sessions but you can then still qualify on it for another 4 times assuming you only run 2-3 laps at a go. I pretty regularly got up to 13-15 heat cycles but the last 5 would just be two lap qualifying sessions on what are nearly slicks. I never ran 1/32" or 2/32" stickers to qualify at any of our tracks so I can't say how they would compare... the baldies captured pole many times though.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[Waterboy]

I call BS on your first paragragh...maybe 2x the tire budget but 3x to 4x?? We got 12 heat cycles average out of 3/32 RA1's. The first 6 of those were spent in practice or on a $250 test day to wear them down...the next 4 were good...the last couple a crap shoot. And this was because we were to cheap to shave them any more to only get 4-6 heat cycles out of them(like the front runners you mentioned). So you say 6 heat cycles on the Hoosier...I say 6 heat cycles on a RA1...these both in there prime to be competitive. Sounds like a pretty even cost to me(at the pointy end)?? What am I missing?

For the mid-packer who doesn't really slid the RA1, I can see were it will outlast the Hoosier just based on the fact that the Hoosier will heat cycle out sooner(grip wise). So for this reason I'm giving you 2X the cost...but even this would seem a stretch.

This thread was started to help our region come to a decision on a tire for next year. We did not move to the Hoosier for 2012 based on 3 reasons(Brian can correct me if I'm wrong)...

~Keep SM regional race budgets lower
~Stay on the same tire our local NASA region was on.
~Toyo offered nice contingency money(which was given out in a modified lottery format...not just the top 5 guys)

So now NASA is moving to the RR( )and our very large regional SM group is left standing in the field alone.

Do we stay on RA1's, go to the SCCA national tire(Hoosier), or move to the RR and stay with NASA and the Toyo contingency money(which I assume we would also still get on the RA1)?? Gathering info here will help make this decision. But exaggerated info and those who agree with it wont help IMO...

Sorry but I have to agree with Muda. I showed up at the track every weeked with a set of sticker Hoosiers (as did most front runners) to qualify and finish in the top 5, never had to do that with RA1's. And as Muda stated you have to practice on stickers or possibly one session tires for the car to handle the same. RA1's you could buy 2/32 or 3/32 and practice on them and the car would handle exactly the same, slower but the same. And then as you stated they were perfect for racing. 3x to 4x is defintely not out of the question.

[Kevin Anderson]

It also has created an advantage for those with more money to spend. I am seeing guys on stickers for qual and then stickers again for the race.

[pat slattery]

We only got to race on Hoosier one weekend this year. In the rain the Hoosier is a big improvement. On the dry, never got a really handle on them, my driver (son) had raced RA1 for so long he was still finding the braking and cornering limits. Initially, we were slow, but got faster as we learned we could go in deeper and didn't have to brake as early.

I would take the Toyo's any day. I would rather have a tire that gets better, vs one that gets worse as you put heat cycles on it. Plus Hoosiers vs the Toyo contingencies are lame compared to when we had Toyos.