107 replies to this topic

[pat slattery]

It also has created an advantage for those with more money to spend. I am seeing guys on stickers for qual and then stickers again for the race.

We have a few Tuckers in SM also, just that you can't spend a million bucks on a SM, but some that would if that is what it would take

[FTodaro]

As far as hard tires.. I think a hard tire that has little to no benefit session 1 to session 20 would be ideal if it weren't an absolute brick. Not sure if such a tire exists, if so, I would be all for it when the contract comes up. The Grand Am Hoosier is harder, but not sure if you would need stickers every session then) But then, none of this has anything to do with the thread.

Because our Region is open tire I have had the opportunity to race on the BFG "Gforce" tire. If you want a tire that is the best of both worlds this is it. lots of stick and lots of life for the same price as a Hoosier. I have seen people get 40 + HC out of this tire, they make a regular compound and an S version n which is softer. I have been competitive on them at 20 + HC. The compound is harder but it seams to get good grip.

Its a tick lighter and smaller than the Hoosier. They do not have a rain tire yet but are working on it.

[philstireservice]

Because our Region is open tire I have had the opportunity to race on the BFG "Gforce" tire. If you want a tire that is the best of both worlds this is it. lots of stick and lots of life for the same price as a Hoosier. I have seen people get 40 + HC out of this tire, they make a regular compound and an S version n which is softer. I have been competitive on them at 20 + HC. The compound is harder but it seams to get good grip.

Its a tick lighter and smaller than the Hoosier. They do not have a rain tire yet but are working on it.

Good tire. May be close in price to the Hoosier, but not the same......

[Jim Drago]

I showed up at the track every weekend with a set of sticker Hoosiers (as did most front runners) to qualify and finish in the top 5, never had to do that with RA1's. And as Muda stated you have to practice on stickers or possibly one session tires for the car to handle the same. RA1's you could buy 2/32 or 3/32 and practice on them and the car would handle exactly the same, slower but the same.

I am just not seeing this.. I have never "practiced " on a sticker Hoosier, If I was going out on a Sticker, I was cycling ,racing or qualifying and have done little cycling this year.

I went through one set of RA1's a weekend and I am going through one set of SM6 a weekend? Runoffs I used three sets and not buying any tires for the ARRC at all
Jim

[FTodaro]

Good tire. May be close in price to the Hoosier, but not the same......

Yes your right depending on where you buy it its about $10 to 15.00 more per tire, i was "Close"

[Muda]

I am just not seeing this.. I have never "practiced " on a sticker Hoosier, If I was going out on a Sticker, I was cycling ,racing or qualifying and have done little cycling this year.

Maybe on a national schedule, single class. Try my schedule for last weekend. Fri:Test day, Sat:two qualifiers & 2- 10 lap qualifying races, Sun: 2 - 18 lap features.
I try to practice on my last race Sunday stickers with typically 2 hc. So after the test day they have 6-8hc, good only for sale to Ron. Stickers for Sat. Now 4 good hc, but can I win on them on Sunday? Do I take the chance with everyone else on stickers? Came to the track @6am and Smartie popped my second set on in time for race 1. Tell me you wouldn't do the same Jim?

Maybe we should restrict the tire usage and mark the tires like the pros do. Now that might make it a lot more interesting.

[Jim Drago]

Maybe on a national schedule, single class. Try my schedule for last weekend. Fri:Test day, Sat:two qualifiers & 2- 10 lap qualifying races, Sun: 2 - 18 lap features.
I try to practice on my last race Sunday stickers with typically 2 hc. So after the test day they have 6-8hc, good only for sale to Ron. Stickers for Sat. Now 4 good hc, but can I win on them on Sunday? Do I take the chance with everyone else on stickers? Came to the track @6am and Smartie popped my second set on in time for race 1. Tell me you wouldn't do the same Jim?

I wouldn't do the same

[Muda]

I wouldn't do the same

'Cause YOU would probably win without the stickers. Me, I worked hard to get there and really wanted those flags.

[Jim Drago]

Tell me you wouldn't do the same Jim?

I was just following instructions and doing what you asked

[Tom Sager]

Maybe we should restrict the tire usage and mark the tires like the pros do. Now that might make it a lot more interesting.

I had a similar thought but I don't know if it solves anything. If (using Hoosier SCCA example) we were required to race on the same tire on which we qualified, the fastest way within the rules would be to qualify on stickers, race on them and make them practice tires thereafter. Maybe you can stretch and use the tires for 2 events (4 sessions total) and still be pretty competitive. I believe after that for sure you're giving up speed. I have cycled tires per Hoosier guidelines and I do believe it helps the tire grip better for more cycles but not significantly so. For grins in August I ran a test at Autobahn (which has several left and right hand turns) with old Hoosiers (6-7 cycles) on one side of the car and stickers on the other side and there was no doubt a difference that could be noticed.

I do love the H2O for rain. As others have said it's really good and I think as a group we're better off in rain on a better rain tire.

The longer term solution on the SCCA side I believe is to find another tire with longer competitive life or ask Hoosier to make some revisions in the tire that would make it deliver competitive grip longer. Hoosier from what I've seen has treated our class very well at and away from the track.

[Craig Berry]

I dont know about you guys, but I am seeing very similiar data from Toyo to Hoosier(not lap times) on wear and what works. This data points to the track as a major factor. Just some examples from notes.....Fastest lap at Sebring was on 5 cycled tires, but lacked grip first lap; my fastest at Hallet was with 4cycled tires; I know at TWS the only tire to run is stickers same as Toyos, must be new 3's or you can't compete, at the Road America Sprints my fast lap for the week was on 6 cycled, including a race win one month before.
My notes on both tires seem to indicate the track dictates stickers or cycled.
Just ran another test yesterday with Luke Bickham and ran the Hoosiers until no lines left....up until then they remained faster than the Toyo. Once the lines are gone we found zero grip....that took 7 sessions on a very abrasive track.
With either tire it does not appear to me we can make a blanket statment about how long the competitive life is....it will come down to track, temperature, amount of rubber laid down and even driving style and speed of the driver.
All that being said I really like the Hoosier. It has the stiff sidewall feel of a great dry racetire, and the H2O has the extremely soft sidewall that helps give amazing rain grip.

[Ron Alan]

Sorry but I have to agree with Muda. I showed up at the track every weeked with a set of sticker Hoosiers (as did most front runners) to qualify and finish in the top 5, never had to do that with RA1's. And as Muda stated you have to practice on stickers or possibly one session tires for the car to handle the same. RA1's you could buy 2/32 or 3/32 and practice on them and the car would handle exactly the same, slower but the same. And then as you stated they were perfect for racing. 3x to 4x is defintely not out of the question.

To clarify...i agree the Hoho is more money to run. And depending on where in the pack you are, your goals on finishing, and your confidence in running a tire that may not be ideal....your tire budget will vary for sure! Jim says the same cost...and I will give others 2x for sure...but 3 or 4x is hard to imagine. If the RR pans out it could provide some real discussion for SCCA in a few years.

[pat slattery]

Who was responsible for the decision for the Hoosier tire, and was there any testing prior to making a decision. The H2O tire is a great improvement over the RA1 full tread for wet conditions, but, for the budget racer the SM6 sucks, and you compare the contingencys from the year before with the SCCA and Toyo vs the Hoosier and the Toyo was by far the better deal IMHO

[Jim Drago]

Who was responsible for the decision for the Hoosier tire, and was there any testing prior to making a decision. The H2O tire is a great improvement over the RA1 full tread for wet conditions, but, for the budget racer the SM6 sucks, and you compare the contingencys from the year before with the SCCA and Toyo vs the Hoosier and the Toyo was by far the better deal IMHO

Board of directors makes the decision. No tire test immediately prior to this contract, only companies that submitted proposals were Toyo and Hoosier. There were no changes in either tire since the last test, so there was no need to do another. The BOD had all the test data from the last test. If unhappy with this decision or anything else, you should always email your area director , they are elected officials and your Representative in the club, let them know how you feel.

[pat slattery]

Jim, curious if no testing was done and using the old data, how was Toyo picked and then a couple of years later they choose Hoosier based on the same data. Also the Hoosier contingencies were less than what Toyo had been giving and then we had NASA and SCCA on opposing tires, which again seemed contrary to both org. trying to have similar rules. Just saying.

[Armando Ramirez]

>they are elected officials and your Representative in the club, let them know how you feel.

Sort of not much point after the fact, particularly when there is a long term agreement.

From reading the many different posts, it seems that the same group is the one always happy with BOD decisions - just saying...

Board of directors makes the decision. No tire test immediately prior to this contract, only companies that submitted proposals were Toyo and Hoosier. There were no changes in either tire since the last test, so there was no need to do another. The BOD had all the test data from the last test. If unhappy with this decision or anything else, you should always email your area director , they are elected officials and your Representative in the club, let them know how you feel.

[Rob Burgoon]

Jim, curious if no testing was done and using the old data, how was Toyo picked and then a couple of years later they choose Hoosier based on the same data. Also the Hoosier contingencies were less than what Toyo had been giving and then we had NASA and SCCA on opposing tires, which again seemed contrary to both org. trying to have similar rules. Just saying.

IIRC there was a survey on what people wanted in a tire. No shaving was on the list among other things. Only trouble is the list options weren't weighted, so "molded tire" could have been interpreted as important as "long life" or "cost per tire". Also "long life" may not have been spelled out as "long competitive life".

In hindsight, using a survey to describe the ideal tire probably wasn't the best idea.

For next time (in the spirit of our country's democratic silly season), how about making everything public. Create a test day report document that lists pros, cons, tester's impressions and such. Then create a document that discusses what the tire company is offering the club in terms of contingency, support, and/or money for the SCCA coffers.

Then have a vote by the SM racing SCCA members.

Whatcha guys think? Jim?

[Rob Burgoon]

The other possibility is before a tire change year, get some regions to volunteer to race on one of the proposed tires for two or three race weekends and report back.

Now that's some test data.

[Johnny D]

For next time (in the spirit of our country's democratic silly season), how about making everything public. Create a test day report document that lists pros, cons, tester's impressions and such. Then create a document that discusses what the tire company is offering the club in terms of contingency, support, and/or money for the SCCA coffers.

How about the other way around. Has or could the BOD or assistants or marketing contacted all the MFGs, Hankook, Kumho, Nitto, Yokohama, BFG, Pirelli, Michelin, etc and see what they have to offer. Who's interested, what have they got and go from there.
Then you may get questions like... would you pay $400 for a 20hc tire?
J~

[racinglawyer]

before anyone votes..make the contract between the companies public along with all the testing.....How can you vote for something you have not been given a chance to review what you are vioting on.....somewhere, someone has to be up front and show the winning contract along with a statement under oath the winner did not give any compensation for the contract...Just my 2 cents..Mike cefalo