138 replies to this topic

[chris haldeman]

Here are photos of car during and after first race

[chris haldeman]

Here

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•  image.jpg   37KB   8 downloads
•  image.jpg   20.58KB   8 downloads

[chris haldeman]

On track

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•  image.jpg   58.66KB   8 downloads

[Steve Scheifler]

Need to keep the potential of getting hit two days in a row. As someone else pointed out, otherwise, knowing you will be skipped the next day is a ticket to do whatever you want. However, in that rare case I would adjust the item to be checked on the second day to something that theoretically could be changed overnight. OK, almost anything could be changed, but choose something likely. Since they don't do teardown stuff until the end I don't really see why it is a big deal anyway.

[FTodaro]

Need to keep the potential of getting hit two days in a row. As someone else pointed out, otherwise, knowing you will be skipped the next day is a ticket to do whatever you want.

Honestly, if this is the true mentality of the guys i am racing against, I my have to think about changing my hobby, because you will never win that battle and in the process your going to alienate the good people out there.  Most people that i know and know well want to run by the rules and even when we know we are not getting teched we do not intentionally break the rules. I suspect there are people out there like you describe but it sure is not the majority. If you think about the past year or so with the compliance issues, since 1/1/2015, there have been no intentional cheats, and the out of compliance items were more technical violations rather than a purposeful cheat.

 

What i find interesting is after all the intense tech in 2015, its still the same group of talented drivers at the front.

[Ron Alan]

Honestly, if this is the true mentality of the guys i am racing against, I my have to think about changing my hobby, because you will never win that battle and in the process your going to alienate the good people out there.  Most people that i know and know well want to run by the rules and even when we know we are not getting teched we do not intentionally break the rules. I suspect there are people out there like you describe but it sure is not the majority. If you think about the past year or so with the compliance issues, since 1/1/2015, there have been no intentional cheats, and the out of compliance items were more technical violations rather than a purposeful cheat.

 

What i find interesting is after all the intense tech in 2015, its still the same group of talented drivers at the front.

I'm with you a 100% Frank...as are most! But if we ignore history, well, you know what they say! 

 

The most experienced and knowledgeable people who have been involved in SM come on here all the time and mention things that have gone on since day 1. Call it the next magic secret, gray area, tech shed legal or just an outright cheat, it has never stopped. Will it? History says no...but thankfully most things have been brought to light and many more know what to look for. So here we are...and I think we just need to live with..."Trust but verify"

 

With regard to your last sentence, IMO the fastest and most talented will always be near the front regardless of the car, and sometimes in spite of! We also know that sometimes a finding of non-compliance is as big a shock to the driver as anyone else. They have relied on others but in the end its their name on the results. Not sure if your statement is meant to somewhat sweep under the rug what did happen in the past 6 months, but to me to insinuate the fast guys are going to be up front whether they are compliant or non-compliant isnt the right approach to take. Maybe i'm not seeing this the way you intended?

[Brocodile]

The higher standard of tech is welcome; however, we need to be careful not to create too much of a good thing. I advocate a pragmatic approach to tech. This means identifying (1) the most effective performance-enhancing cheats, (2) the cheapest ones, and (3) the easiest ones to catch, and concentrating first on the areas where the three groups overlap. For example, compression ratio is highly effective, cheap and easy to catch, so the Whistler should be standard, Likewise, cams are effective, though not as cheap, but they are easy to check, especially if the cam covers are already off for the Whistler test. Both were checked at NOLA. Head work, such as STR blending, unshrouding of valves, etc. are much harder to check (very intrusive tech) and (arguably) less effective than some others. Pulling heads should be the exception, not the rule, but, for purposes of deterrence, the possibility should always exist. Perhaps intake manifolds could be pulled and checked and ports could be inspected with a scope at the same time. This wouldn't be effective for checking plunge cuts, but would reveal obvious hogging or polishing of ports.

 

My point: Highly intrusive tech will tend to hurt participation if it becomes SOP at every event. Likewise, seizing on technicalities and "gotcha" stuff is counter-productive and only leads to resentment. Tech is necessary to lend validity to the results of the racing, but it should be carefully designed so as not to destroy validity, either by reducing participation or by changing the results of a race for transgressions having little to do with performance. It's all about balance and prudence on the stewards' part.

[Steve Scheifler]

Overall agree, but unless they pulled cams out then they didn't check anything that is likely to be there. Even in the bad old days the lift was spec in most of them, too easy to check.

Frank, there are always a few, and often more who don't really know what they have, that's just how it is and always will be. How many times do we need to prove it even in our tiny little corner of the world?

[FTodaro]

With regard to your last sentence, IMO the fastest and most talented will always be near the front regardless of the car, and sometimes in spite of! We also know that sometimes a finding of non-compliance is as big a shock to the driver as anyone else. They have relied on others but in the end its their name on the results. Not sure if your statement is meant to somewhat sweep under the rug what did happen in the past 6 months, but to me to insinuate the fast guys are going to be up front whether they are compliant or non-compliant isnt the right approach to take. Maybe i'm not seeing this the way you intended?

I am not suggesting that anything should be swept under the rug, just pointing out that the drivers at the front are doing that based upon their talent and not the hardware.

[Steve Scheifler]

Mostly, but the old line about so-and-so being able to run at the front even if... blah, blah, blah is flatterihg rubbish. Seen it plenty of times when a hot shoe gets in an average car and can't even see the lead pack at the end. Physics is physics boys. A really good driver can finess a lousy setup but you can't finess more power in something as slow as these, and if you could then you'd walk the field in a good car.

The guys at the front all have pretty much the same shit from a limited number of builders and shared information. Take all the grey and black away most of them will still be up there. BUT, some of the people not part of the in-crowd and not buying with a blindfold on and fingers in their ears get closer. THAT's what matters. Don't you guys get that? Make them play by the friggin rules and a few more drivers will have a chance to latch on to the train and join the fun, and develop the race craft that can be learned only near the front, often by being beat. If the front pack is bigger than ever, look at better tech as part of the reason. And on back through the field the one-on-one battles are a little more about the driver. Nobody has EVER suggested the field would flip upside down if the cheating stopped, and the inevitable comments about how it won't change things at the front just plays into the hands of those who stretch every rule till it breaks. Time to support the poor guy trying to do things the right way and stop blowing smoke up the asses of the rest.

[Ron Alan]

I am not suggesting that anything should be swept under the rug, just pointing out that the drivers at the front are doing that based upon their talent and not the hardware.

I will respectfully disagree and say it is a combination! We have all seen people we consider great drivers become human when something is amiss with the car they are driving. Or it is just not the best legal car on the track that day!

[FTodaro]

Mostly, but the old line about so-and-so being able to run at the front even if... blah, blah, blah is flatterihg rubbish. Seen it plenty of times when a hot shoe gets in an average car and can't even see the lead pack at the end. Physics is physics boys. A really good driver can finess a lousy setup but you can't finess more power in something as slow as these, and if you could then you'd walk the field in a good car.

The guys at the front all have pretty much the same shit from a limited number of builders and shared information. Take all the grey and black away most of them will still be up there. BUT, some of the people not part of the in-crowd and not buying with a blindfold on and fingers in their ears get closer. THAT's what matters. Don't you guys get that? Make them play by the friggin rules and a few more drivers will have a chance to latch on to the train and join the fun, and develop the race craft that can be learned only near the front, often by being beat. If the front pack is bigger than ever, look at better tech as part of the reason. And on back through the field the one-on-one battles are a little more about the driver. Nobody has EVER suggested the field would flip upside down if the cheating stopped, and the inevitable comments about how it won't change things at the front just plays into the hands of those who stretch every rule till it breaks. Time to support the poor guy trying to do things the right way and stop blowing smoke up the asses of the rest.

Steve I do not disagree with any of what your saying I sure as hell have no problem with enforcing compliance. I think the compliance testing to date has established that things are going in the right direction.

 

Maybe i should have said it this way. If you put me in one of the front runner cars i do not think that it would improve my odds. But agree that we all have seen outliers that were not legit. 

[Blake Clements]

Jim Creighton, I was told multiple times I was "lucky" and was randomly selected as the random selection on both days. 

[Michael Novak]

Jim Creighton, I was told multiple times I was "Lucky Clements" and was randomly selected as the random selection on both days. 

 

 

New Nickname   "Lucky Clements"

[Blake Clements]

Anyone know if there was a photographer there taking photos?

[Jim Creighton]

Lucky, I believe they were pulling your leg.

[davew]

Anyone know if there was a photographer there taking photos?

 

Ann was taking pix all weekend. I am sure she has some of your pretty new car. While it was still pretty     Look at our facebook page. I will have her find some if they are not already up

 

dave

[Danny Steyn]

Here is my video from Race 2. The first two laps are a bit boring, but it gets really interesting from the 3rd lap onwards. You will soon see why NOLA is such a fun drivers track!!!!

 

[Caesar Vielmas]

Late to this party but here is my 

 

 

After many years in SM I've concluded that this statement is spot on. 

 

I am not suggesting that anything should be swept under the rug, just pointing out that the drivers at the front are doing that based upon their talent and not the hardware.

 

Well put and congrats to the usual suspects upfront. 

 

Yes you need a top prep car but more importantly you have to put in the track seat time, work on your race craft and have the nads and the endurance to race at the edge the entire time.

 

I almost always see posts from the top guys testing the weekend before an event, working on car setup, studying laps and laps of data, analysing video, racing at every event, racing at multiple tracks, etc, etc. Thanks to Danny for posting his videos (not many front guys share, understandably so) but watch his video and you'll see his craft and others around him, VERY close racing, VERY close front to back at all turn, side by side clean passes, hear where he gets on the gas and off the gas and compare to yours. The differences can be very eye opening and in the end every bit counts. 

 

I know I'm stating the obvious for many, but we can try to make ourselves feel better about our "average" driving by speculating about whether or not the front guys' engines are legit. I suggest if we focused on putting in time at the track, looking at data and working on car setup and race craft, very soon someone will start thinking we are all of the sudden cheating too.